Politics

Lone Star Bluegrass said:
If that’s true as described, that’s terrifying. JDV was right—if you’re going to be a police state it’s hard to make the argument that you deserve to be defended with American blood because you’re just a Soviet in tight jeans.
Click to expand...

But if you're a labour party member and your assault on someone is caught on camera, you will get a suspended sentence.

news.sky.com

Mike Amesbury: MP jailed for punching constituent in street walks free after appealing against prison sentence

The 55-year-old punched his constituent several times and was heard shouting: "You won't threaten your MP again will you, you f****** soft lad?"
news.sky.com news.sky.com
 
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Ya, I'm torn between the voice in my head screaming "take this offline now!" and the curiosity over whether this level of transparency might not be exactly what's needed.
 
Wow, what a sh*t show.
 
Trump is being told to ''do one''

That must be a novel experience for him

My nature is for the underdog

Trump isn’t clever - he is just an over privileged bloke with a big ego and a bigger gob

He just met someone with courage and nothing to lose rather than pandering sycophants

Interesting
 
I found it absolutely wonderful that the little guy with the bad clothes was having none of Trump or Vance's sanctimonious BS - "I am for the world!" Seriously!?! Putin invades Ukraine, and the Ukrainian people, led by Zelensky, have the courage to fight the invader to a standstill. Therefore, they are responsible for courting World War III. Putin and Lavrov must be laughing to tears between vodka shots. I think they should award Trump a Hero of the Motherland award. Thank God a large number of republican senators aren't complete Trump sycophants.

I think it is worth reflection that the two places that will see these clips played the most will be MAGA world sites and Russian State TV.

Apparently, they are still negotiating - maybe a win/win deal can yet emerge form this nonsense. Unfortunately, they have publicly put themselves in a place where neither can be perceived to have backed down.
 
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bowjijohn said:
He just met someone with courage and nothing to lose rather than pandering sycophants
Click to expand...

Im not sure I agree with this piece (the rest of your post I agree with)..

Zelenskyy took a huge gamble.. and maybe lost if he and Trump cant find a way to recover..

And I think he has an entire country to lose.. and potentially if we get brutally honest about it, his own life, the life of his family, and the lives of thousands upon thousands of Ukranians..

Trump made the statement "make a deal, or we're out".

If we're out means what it implies (the US is actually out, and Ukraine can expect no more support).. which is honestly hard to tell with Trump (he tends to overstate things, or state things in a way that aren't exactly what is being said).. Im not seeing how Ukraine lasts very long past the spring offensive that we know is going to start very soon.. .

Europe cant bridge the gap that would be left by the US completely stopping the flow of munitions, arms, and dollars into Ukraine without putting its own economies in jeopardy and weakening its own militaries to a point of potential vulnerability..

Which means Putin likely ends up on the doorstep of Kiev in fairly short order..

Which means Russia dictates the terms of peace/surrender.. Ukraine is left with no negotiating position or leverage..


I honestly didn't see things going this way... I expected Zelensky to try to do a little negotiating.. but he is clearly not in a position of leverage or a position to make demands.. he doesn't have a "replacement" available if the US walks away from the table.. and if the US decides to actually back Russia in any way (its already proven in the UN last week that its willing to at least back Russia there), he is genuinely doomed.. He has to know and understand this.. he isn't stupid...

So.. I figured once he pushed back a little, and once the US said "no", he'd capitulate and agree to pretty much any terms put in front of him.. what other option does he really have?

Clearly the Trump administration is still pissed about him stumping for the Biden campaign back in September when he made his trip to the PA munitions factory.. Vance specifically made mention of Zelenskyys actions on that trip today..

And clearly Vance and Trump had an expectation that Zelensky would be coming into the oval office with hat in hand rather than trying to argue or debate with them about Ukraines position..

I think Zelensky did a very poor job of sizing up the battlefield.. he was rushed to the US for these meetings.. maybe he didn't have enough time to prepare...

Hes met with and spoken with Trump enough to know how Trump plays the game.. he knows Trump isn't a particularly great orator, and that Trump fights with an axe, not a rapier..

But not only did he not appear to be prepared for Trumps axe.. he wasn't at all prepared for Vance..

Engaging with Vance is a completely different affair.. you can watch his exchanges with hostile reporters and get a very good feel for how he deals with disagreement and conflict.. he is razor sharp, asks extremely pointed questions that backs his opponents into corners... and only swings the haymaker once he 100% knows you're unguarded and that he is going to land it..
 
Red Leg said:
Apparently, they are still negotiating - maybe a win/win deal can yet emerge form this nonsense. Unfortunately, they have publicly put themselves in a place where neither can be perceived to have backed down.
Click to expand...

Im hopeful they can put their spat behind them and move forward.. its definitely going to be difficult to get back to a position where both can look like winners, and neither come out looking weak or like a loser..

Im seriously blown away that it got where it did.. that was completely unexpected by me..
 
mdwest said:
Im not sure I agree with this piece (the rest of your post I agree with)..

Zelenskyy took a huge gamble.. and maybe lost if he and Trump cant find a way to recover..

And I think he has an entire country to lose.. and potentially if we get brutally honest about it, his own life, the life of his family, and the lives of thousands upon thousands of Ukranians..

Trump made the statement "make a deal, or we're out".

If we're out means what it implies (the US is actually out, and Ukraine can expect no more support).. which is honestly hard to tell with Trump (he tends to overstate things, or state things in a way that aren't exactly what is being said).. Im not seeing how Ukraine lasts very long past the spring offensive that we know is going to start very soon.. .

Europe cant bridge the gap that would be left by the US completely stopping the flow of munitions, arms, and dollars into Ukraine without putting its own economies in jeopardy and weakening its own militaries to a point of potential vulnerability..

Which means Putin likely ends up on the doorstep of Kiev in fairly short order..

Which means Russia dictates the terms of peace/surrender.. Ukraine is left with no negotiating position or leverage..


I honestly didn't see things going this way... I expected Zelensky to try to do a little negotiating.. but he is clearly not in a position of leverage or a position to make demands.. he doesn't have a "replacement" available if the US walks away from the table.. and if the US decides to actually back Russia in any way (its already proven in the UN last week that its willing to at least back Russia there), he is genuinely doomed.. He has to know and understand this.. he isn't stupid...

So.. I figured once he pushed back a little, and once the US said "no", he'd capitulate and agree to pretty much any terms put in front of him.. what other option does he really have?

Clearly the Trump administration is still pissed about him stumping for the Biden campaign back in September when he made his trip to the PA munitions factory.. Vance specifically made mention of Zelenskyys actions on that trip today..

And clearly Vance and Trump had an expectation that Zelensky would be coming into the oval office with hat in hand rather than trying to argue or debate with them about Ukraines position..

I think Zelensky did a very poor job of sizing up the battlefield.. he was rushed to the US for these meetings.. maybe he didn't have enough time to prepare...

Hes met with and spoken with Trump enough to know how Trump plays the game.. he knows Trump isn't a particularly great orator, and that Trump fights with an axe, not a rapier..

But not only did he not appear to be prepared for Trumps axe.. he wasn't at all prepared for Vance..

Engaging with Vance is a completely different affair.. you can watch his exchanges with hostile reporters and get a very good feel for how he deals with disagreement and conflict.. he is razor sharp, asks extremely pointed questions that backs his opponents into corners... and only swings the haymaker once he 100% knows you're unguarded and that he is going to land it..
Click to expand...
I was thoroughly sickened by what I saw displayed by my president and vice president.
 
mdwest said:
Im not sure I agree with this piece (the rest of your post I agree with)..

Zelenskyy took a huge gamble.. and maybe lost if he and Trump cant find a way to recover..

And I think he has an entire country to lose.. and potentially if we get brutally honest about it, his own life, the life of his family, and the lives of thousands upon thousands of Ukranians..

Trump made the statement "make a deal, or we're out".

If we're out means what it implies (the US is actually out, and Ukraine can expect no more support).. which is honestly hard to tell with Trump (he tends to overstate things, or state things in a way that aren't exactly what is being said).. Im not seeing how Ukraine lasts very long past the spring offensive that we know is going to start very soon.. .

Europe cant bridge the gap that would be left by the US completely stopping the flow of munitions, arms, and dollars into Ukraine without putting its own economies in jeopardy and weakening its own militaries to a point of potential vulnerability..

Which means Putin likely ends up on the doorstep of Kiev in fairly short order..

Which means Russia dictates the terms of peace/surrender.. Ukraine is left with no negotiating position or leverage..


I honestly didn't see things going this way... I expected Zelensky to try to do a little negotiating.. but he is clearly not in a position of leverage or a position to make demands.. he doesn't have a "replacement" available if the US walks away from the table.. and if the US decides to actually back Russia in any way (its already proven in the UN last week that its willing to at least back Russia there), he is genuinely doomed.. He has to know and understand this.. he isn't stupid...

So.. I figured once he pushed back a little, and once the US said "no", he'd capitulate and agree to pretty much any terms put in front of him.. what other option does he really have?

Clearly the Trump administration is still pissed about him stumping for the Biden campaign back in September when he made his trip to the PA munitions factory.. Vance specifically made mention of Zelenskyys actions on that trip today..

And clearly Vance and Trump had an expectation that Zelensky would be coming into the oval office with hat in hand rather than trying to argue or debate with them about Ukraines position..

I think Zelensky did a very poor job of sizing up the battlefield.. he was rushed to the US for these meetings.. maybe he didn't have enough time to prepare...

Hes met with and spoken with Trump enough to know how Trump plays the game.. he knows Trump isn't a particularly great orator, and that Trump fights with an axe, not a rapier..

But not only did he not appear to be prepared for Trumps axe.. he wasn't at all prepared for Vance..

Engaging with Vance is a completely different affair.. you can watch his exchanges with hostile reporters and get a very good feel for how he deals with disagreement and conflict.. he is razor sharp, asks extremely pointed questions that backs his opponents into corners... and only swings the haymaker once he 100% knows you're unguarded and that he is going to land it..
Click to expand...

I can't argue with the serious of the position that Zelensky find himself in

However - he was belittled and played, just so Trump could grab some mineral wealth

Trump has created a schism in western alliances - for what? A few quid?

I'm not a fan of the EU but I hope that the Nations of Europe find a backbone and step into the void

Suddenly that book that he didn't write doesn't seem so clever
 
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Red Leg said:
I was thoroughly sickened by what I saw displayed by my president and vice president.
Click to expand...

no disagreement from me on that... while Im not one to go on about "Trump isn't Presidential"... I do expect a certain amount of decorum when world leaders meet.. whether the subject matter is good, bad, friendly, or unfriendly..

Im just observing that world leaders generally have large teams that prepare them in great detail for these type of meetings.. and they usually know exactly what they are walking into, what to expect, and are prepared to respond no matter which direction a conversation goes.. this is especially true when they know they're going to be "live" in front of the media, etc..etc..

And Zelenskyy didn't appear to be prepared for what just happened..

It looked like a linear ambush.. that he walked into, and then couldn't escape..
 
mdwest said:
no disagreement from me on that... while Im not one to go on about "Trump isn't Presidential"... I do expect a certain amount of decorum when world leaders meet.. whether the subject matter is good, bad, friendly, or unfriendly..

Im just observing that world leaders generally have large teams that prepare them in great detail for these type of meetings.. and they usually know exactly what they are walking into, what to expect, and are prepared to respond no matter which direction a conversation goes.. this is especially true when they know they're going to be "live" in front of the media, etc..etc..

And Zelenskyy didn't appear to be prepared for what just happened..

It looked like a linear ambush.. that he walked into, and then couldn't escape..
Click to expand...
Based on Vance's position, I would say L shaped.

This guy with the funny clothes told Vladimir Putin and the whole Russian military to FU, and to date he and his people have delivered. I suspect neither Trump nor Vance particularly impress him. I further suspect he fully realizes that Trump does not represent "the world" - apparently only Russia and its allies. I would assume Ukrainian analysis has concluded US support is already lost, and that its interests are best served by battling on for their independence counting on Europe.

I would again note, a number of very smart analysts believe Russia currently is in far worse military and economic shape than Ukraine.
 
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