Running a double rifle

[VertigoBE]

Thank you @One Day… I was secretly hoping to lure you into writing one of your always very thorough and much appreciated analysis’!

Concerning the sighting in, and also as a response to @Red Leg and @rookhawk, I think I’ll first try the average way to start. Depending on results I’ll then relaunch this topic with all of you!

Concerning bullet selection, I understand that with today’s premium softs (my rifle is regulated for 350grain Norma Woodleigh’s soft nose) I should only have a use for solids on elephant and land hippo? Is that correct? In which case I’ll buy far less solids (350grain Norma Woodleigh FMJ) and much more softs. No point in having 500 solids for life then.

African carry is of course excluded, and I’ll try out with a sling barrel up or down, whatever is most comfortable.

Front first, back second, got it! Need to find a cheap sxs for practice at the range too. Also good for practicing the different recoil impulse.

I have the choice of extractors or ejectors on my Heym apparently. Would it make sense to never rely on the ejectors and practice mainly as if it were extractor only?

On reloading, the consensus seems to be stop, reload, run. Not while moving.

Also need to practice this safety on off movement. My Mauser M03 has a cocking lever safety. So I have always practiced first shouldering, then cocking. I’ll need to break this habit…

@DG Gunsmith: we are back to work at home in Belgium for the coming weeks and this will probably remain so for some time. Hopefully I’ll get my hands on the rifle soon, so i can continuously pick it up, manipulate it in between meetings and calls. To get perfectly accustomed to it. I did it during the last lockdown, for my pistol and rifle. This helps a lot indeed. Btw if you would like to see what I bought (but not yet possess) take a look in the thread “look what AH made me buy”

@Kevin Peacocke: unfortunately as I’m buying the rifle pre owned, I do not yet know what my options will be in the fitting department. I’m not sure I have already found a gunshop in Belgium that I could trust with making any modifications to the rifle (if necessary of course). Despite the great reputation of Belgian firearms and makers, I believe most of that is long in the past… there are still a few, but the knowledge is diminishing.

Thanks a lot for your replies so far, please do not hesitate to continue this discussion! This is invaluable to a puppy like me!

V.

 

[AZDAVE]

Most all of the question you have asked have been answered by the fine people here on AH. I will thrown in my .02 on the reloads. Remember that slow and smooth is always faster that fast and herky jerky kind of reloads. Second if you have a SxS or O/U double rifle it is cheaper and easier to practice with the same configuration in a shotgun.

 

[Tanks]

I have the choice of extractors or ejectors on my Heym apparently. Would it make sense to never rely on the ejectors and practice mainly as if it were extractor only?

Ejectors save you time and effort. I never had an issue with ejectors on my doubles or shotguns (a little over 25K shells ejected since @Red Leg got me hooked last year).

 

[rookhawk]

Desperate?!?

I think that is bad advice for a rifle capable of first shot accuracy out to 300 meters.

Taking in shot-to-shot MOA differences, your advice will give him that potential 2" error beyond MOA at 100 meters with the first shot. That really starts to matter on a Mozambique Nyala at 225 meters. Inside 100 meters, either technique works.

That’s a fair disagreement. Most of my hunting is way inside of 100 yards. 98% of all hunts have been inside of 150 yards. I believe @VertigoBE likely has a very accurate double rifle on his hands with two sets of barrels. If it were mine, I’d want the scope to split the difference between the barrels if its accurate. Again, we don’t know if they run parallel to infinity, or if they converge at 60 yards and are 3” off and growing at a 100. For me, if the gun supports it, I want the scope to service both barrels.

I’ve seen the advice of sighting in to the first barrel applied out of sheer necessity on double rifles that are not in regulation at all. Sort of a desperate “better have one good barrel than no good barrels” mindset.

 

[rookhawk]

@VertigoBE

You would also use solids for things other than always elephant and usually braining hippo. Second shot on Buffalo is a sound plan, stopping a charge. You’ll also use solids a lot with a 375HH on the little-5 and tiny-10. A solid will prevent significant hide damage to a Klippspringer, Duiker, or Steenbok that would be turned to pulp with a soft.

You would turn your ejectors off to protect your brass if you reload. You may opt to turn it off on certain hunts so as to not reveal your location in thick bush after a shot is fired on dangerous game.

 

[Red Leg]

That’s a fair disagreement. Most of my hunting is way inside of 100 yards. 98% of all hunts have been inside of 150 yards. I believe @VertigoBE likely has a very accurate double rifle on his hands with two sets of barrels. If it were mine, I’d want the scope to split the difference between the barrels if its accurate. Again, we don’t know if they run parallel to infinity, or if they converge at 60 yards and are 3” off and growing at a 100. For me, if the gun supports it, I want the scope to service both barrels.

I’ve seen the advice of sighting in to the first barrel applied out of sheer necessity on double rifles that are not in regulation at all. Sort of a desperate “better have one good barrel than no good barrels” mindset.

My S2's shoot parallel (as in not crossing) MOA shots from each barrel at 100 meters and under 2.5 inch four-shot groups with all three sets of barrels. My two favorite 9.3's do the same thing. I can sight between the shots and turn it into 3 - 3.5 MOA rifle at 100 yards, or I can sight in on the first barrel and have a MOA capable rifle out to the effective range of the caliber with a second shot within a couple of MOA at that range. Inside 125 - 150 it will do exactly the same thing as the center sighted rifle. Doing the former strikes me as being somewhat willfully limiting, while the latter seems a good way to take advantage of the full range of a cartridge rather than "desperate."

I have a .470 that I use in the "traditional" manner with open sights and it is logical to use it in the traditional way and achieve combined groups on the sight.

But treating a modern accurate double like a stopping rifle is being a Luddite. Scope it with a detachable scope; take full advantage of first round accuracy; and remain assured it will do anything inside 125 yards a center of group sighted double will do. A no brainer. A technique I have proven to my satisfaction on game large and small, close and far, in Africa.

And I never use solids on buffalo any longer under any conditions. I would suspect the vast majority of PH's now also subscribe to a magazine or two barrels loaded with premium SP's.

 

[VertigoBE]

Most all of the question you have asked have been answered by the fine people here on AH. I will thrown in my .02 on the reloads. Remember that slow and smooth is always faster that fast and herky jerky kind of reloads. Second if you have a SxS or O/U double rifle it is cheaper and easier to practice with the same configuration in a shotgun.

Would you recommend to reload one round at a time, or immediately try to learn to reload both rounds at the same time? The sport shooter from the video showed the two round at a time method, but he is only interested in speed. As you mention slow is smooth, smooth is fast. So perhaps a more deliberate one round at a time is better? Especially in times of stress, tunnel vision, hands trembling, exhaustion, etc.

 

[VertigoBE]

@VertigoBE

You would also use solids for things other than always elephant and usually braining hippo. Second shot on Buffalo is a sound plan, stopping a charge. You’ll also use solids a lot with a 375HH on the little-5 and tiny-10. A solid will prevent significant hide damage to a Klippspringer, Duiker, or Steenbok that would be turned to pulp with a soft.

You would turn your ejectors off to protect your brass if you reload. You may opt to turn it off on certain hunts so as to not reveal your location in thick bush after a shot is fired on dangerous game.

Okay so 500 rounds of soft and 500 rounds of solid + 500 rounds of the 7x65r it is then. thanks @rookhawk

Good point also on the ejector/extractor. I thought at first to just put it in extractor and not think about it anymore, but perhaps I should make this a conscious step in the overall handling of the rifle: For example each time I either sling the rifle or shoulder it, to have my fingers brush against it to ensure it is in the position I want it to be. Or rather leave it is always per definition in ejector mode, but consciously before reloading double check if I do not want to change to extractor, if the situation allows for it.

Otherwise it likely will always be in the wrong setting at the wrong time.

 

[Red Leg]

Would you recommend to reload one round at a time, or immediately try to learn to reload both rounds at the same time? The sport shooter from the video showed the two round at a time method, but he is only interested in speed. As you mention slow is smooth, smooth is fast. So perhaps a more deliberate one round at a time is better? Especially in times of stress, tunnel vision, hands trembling, exhaustion, etc.

I recommend you get yourself a dual trigger shotgun and spent a bunch of weekends and several hundred rounds at a clays range finding out how you are most comfortable reloading a break open gun (and more importantly, becoming familiar with double triggers). And just to keep all this in perspective, while hunting, I would guess I have reloaded a single round at least 95% of the time.

 

[rookhawk]

I recommend you get yourself a dual trigger shotgun and spent a bunch of weekends and several hundred rounds at a clays range finding out how you are most comfortable reloading a break open gun (and more importantly, becoming familiar with double triggers). And just to keep all this in perspective, while hunting, I would guess I have reloaded a single round at least 95% of the time.

This is golden advice, @Red Leg

 

[VertigoBE]

I recommend you get yourself a dual trigger shotgun and spent a bunch of weekends and several hundred rounds at a clays range finding out how you are most comfortable reloading a break open gun (and more importantly, becoming familiar with double triggers). And just to keep all this in perspective, while hunting, I would guess I have reloaded a single round at least 95% of the time.

I'll do so. And will try to find one with the gunshop taking care of the import (as he is not getting a lot out of this "sale") . Are there any pointers as to what sxs shotgun I should go for? Or any with the same LOP and double triggers should do fine?

The LOP by the way should be 15 inches (including a 1 inch rubber recoil pad) according to the description, which is a tad longer if I compare it to my M03 which is 14.2 inches if I am not mistaken.

By the way, the previous owner did not mention anything on the .375 barrels, but for the 7x65r he had this to say: "The 7 x 65R barrels are regulated to shoot hot, or cold at 100m. A 0.5 " group can consistently be achieved. Test targets are provided."

Do you think perhaps Heym would know how they were regulated, parallel till infinity or at a specific distance?

 

[One Day...]

If you do not have a sxs shotgun VertigoBE one option to really think hard about (especially if the purpose is to get familiar with the double rifle) is to not buy a shotgun, but buy a set of 20 gauge barrels for the double rifle...

Most folks who do this generally buy the shotgun barrels at the same time they buy the double rifle, but I know for a fact that you can buy shotgun barrels later.

I am not 100% sure whether Heym would want to get the rifle back to mount the shotgun barrels on it (what with close tolerances modern CNC machining etc.) but I would not be surprised if they did...

It may be worth the time to do it because having a set of 20 gauge tubes to bring to Africa with your rifle would truly expand your one-rifle battery to yet another level. Bird hunting in Africa is typically outstanding...

 

[VertigoBE]

If you do not have a sxs shotgun VertigoBE one option to really think hard about (especially if the purpose is to get familiar with the double rifle) is to not buy a shotgun, but buy a set of 20 gauge barrels for the double rifle...

Most folks who do this generally buy the shotgun barrels at the same time they buy the double rifle, but I know for a fact that you can buy shotgun barrels later.

I am not 100% sure whether Heym would want to get the rifle back to mount the shotgun barrels on it (what with close tolerances modern CNC machining etc.) but I would not be surprised if they did...

It may be worth the time to do it because having a set of 20 gauge tubes to bring to Africa with your rifle would truly expand your one-rifle battery to yet another level. Bird hunting in Africa is typically outstanding...

This was also suggested by @rookhawk, and it is indeed an option. However if one day I would go that route, I would like that barrel set to fully match the other stylistic elements of the Heym... that would mean also getting that barrel set engraved by Andreas Scholz... plus the gold inlay, etc...

All combined, I would probably be able to buy 4 or more simple and basic second-hand 12ga sxs shotgun's for the cost of having a truly matching 20ga for the Heym frame. Right now finances do not allow me to splurge once more on such a thing. But this might make a nice anniversary present for myself in a year or two (or more )

 

[One Day...]

You can always have the engraving and the gold done later to spread the financial pain...

More seriously, the stock of a double rifle is significantly different from the stock of a shotgun (length, drop, cast, grip shape, etc.). Being able to develop perfect and unconscious muscle memory through thousands of shells breaking clay with the rifle itself (with shotgun barrels), is not something to be underestimated. The reality is that darn few of us shoot their double(s) enough to develop the same level of proficiency with double rifle as we have with shotgun. This is just a basic consequence of ammo cost and shooting range limitation...

As to reloading, as indicated by others:

1- "Slow is fast." Take your time and do it right the first time; it takes a lot less time to reload calmly than it does to fumble in precipitation and/or to pick up fallen cartridges from the floor.

2- Practice mostly double reload. I agree with Red Leg that the vast majority of the reloads will be single reloads, but you want to be efficient at double reload the rare times when it is needed, and keep in mind that single reloads are typically done under very little stress, which requires less practice, while double reloads may have to be done under stress, and THIS requires a lot of practice.

3- It is very difficult to run with an open double rifle articulated at the hinge, and you want to be careful to NOT pinch your fingers or hand doing it, which can be incredibly painful. You can certainly reload while walking, even briskly, as we have all done many times when hunting birds, but as to reloading on a mad run, I would go back to the first point above: it is faster to reload walking than to pick up cartridges from the floor...

As to extractors vs ejectors, the old rationale to prefer extractors because you can reload discretely without the ping of the ejectors revealing your location in the middle of the herd of Elephant so that you can bag two more hundred pounders, this rationale is as dead as the old days..

That is unless you are engaged in culling as part of a national park management team (shhhhtttt.... the soft hearted public is not supposed to know that many national parks have restarted discreet culling programs to maintain their Elephant population in check with land carrying capacity).

In any case, ejectors or extractors, I think that it is good advice to adopt the military premise: people fight as they train...

I for one would use ejectors if I had them on the rifle...

 

[VertigoBE]

You can always have the engraving and the gold done later to spread the financial pain...

More seriously, the stock of a double rifle is significantly different from the stock of a shotgun (length, drop, cast, grip shape, etc.). Being able to develop perfect and unconscious muscle memory through thousands of shells breaking clay with the rifle itself (with shotgun barrels), is not something to be underestimated. The reality is that darn few of us shoot their double(s) enough to develop the same level of proficiency with double rifle as we have with shotgun. This is just a basic consequence of ammo cost and shooting range limitation...

As to reloading, as indicated by others:

1- "Slow is fast." Take your time and do it right the first time; it takes a lot less time to reload calmly than it does to fumble in precipitation and/or to pick up fallen cartridges from the floor.

2- Practice mostly double reload. I agree with Red Leg that the vast majority of the reloads will be single reloads, but you want to be efficient at double reload the rare times when it is needed, and keep in mind that single reloads are typically done under very little stress, which requires less practice, while double reloads may have to be done under stress, and THIS requires a lot of practice.

3- It is very difficult to run with an open double rifle articulated at the hinge, and you want to be careful to NOT pinch your fingers or hand doing it, which can be incredibly painful. You can certainly reload while walking, even briskly, as we have all done many times when hunting birds, but as to reloading on a mad run, I would go back to the first point above: it is faster to reload walking than to pick up cartridges from the floor...

As to extractors vs ejectors, the old rationale to prefer extractors because you can reload discretely without the ping of the ejectors revealing your location in the middle of the herd of Elephant so that you can bag two more hundred pounders, this rationale is as dead as the old days..

That is unless you are engaged in culling as part of a national park management team (shhhhtttt.... the soft hearted public is not supposed to know that many national parks have restarted discreet culling programs to maintain their Elephant population in check with land carrying capacity).

In any case, ejectors or extractors, I think that it is good advice to adopt the military premise: people fight as they train...

I for one would use ejectors if I had them on the rifle...

also, shhhhtttt... but my goal in the next 2-3 years is to take the Heym on an elephant trip... so I'll need all the advice and excercise I can get

I think I'd rather do that, than invest in the matching 20ga barrelset

 

[Philip Glass]

Thank you @One Day… I was secretly hoping to lure you into writing one of your always very thorough and much appreciated analysis’!

Concerning the sighting in, and also as a response to @Red Leg and @rookhawk, I think I’ll first try the average way to start. Depending on results I’ll then relaunch this topic with all of you!

Concerning bullet selection, I understand that with today’s premium softs (my rifle is regulated for 350grain Norma Woodleigh’s soft nose) I should only have a use for solids on elephant and land hippo? Is that correct? In which case I’ll buy far less solids (350grain Norma Woodleigh FMJ) and much more softs. No point in having 500 solids for life then.

African carry is of course excluded, and I’ll try out with a sling barrel up or down, whatever is most comfortable.

Front first, back second, got it! Need to find a cheap sxs for practice at the range too. Also good for practicing the different recoil impulse.

I have the choice of extractors or ejectors on my Heym apparently. Would it make sense to never rely on the ejectors and practice mainly as if it were extractor only?

On reloading, the consensus seems to be stop, reload, run. Not while moving.

Also need to practice this safety on off movement. My Mauser M03 has a cocking lever safety. So I have always practiced first shouldering, then cocking. I’ll need to break this habit…

@DG Gunsmith: we are back to work at home in Belgium for the coming weeks and this will probably remain so for some time. Hopefully I’ll get my hands on the rifle soon, so i can continuously pick it up, manipulate it in between meetings and calls. To get perfectly accustomed to it. I did it during the last lockdown, for my pistol and rifle. This helps a lot indeed. Btw if you would like to see what I bought (but not yet possess) take a look in the thread “look what AH made me buy”

@Kevin Peacocke: unfortunately as I’m buying the rifle pre owned, I do not yet know what my options will be in the fitting department. I’m not sure I have already found a gunshop in Belgium that I could trust with making any modifications to the rifle (if necessary of course). Despite the great reputation of Belgian firearms and makers, I believe most of that is long in the past… there are still a few, but the knowledge is diminishing.

Thanks a lot for your replies so far, please do not hesitate to continue this discussion! This is invaluable to a puppy like me!

V.

If you have the choice get ejectors. I’ve never understood extractors.

 

[One Day...]

also, shhhhtttt... but my goal in the next 2-3 years is to take the Heym on an elephant trip... so I'll need all the advice and excercise I can get

I think I'd rather do that, than invest in the matching 20ga barrelset

This is a very valid point, and exactly the reason why I do not own a set of 20 gauge barrels for my Krieghoff .470. The US 2021 list price for the rifle is $16,000 and an extra set of 20 gauge barrels is $6,000. Ouch!!!

However, considering the rifle you are getting (full engraving & gold inlay, presentation grade wood, two barrels sets, two claw mounts, two Zeiss Victory HT scopes, one Aimpoint red dot, exotic leather case, etc.), it was a fair supposition that possibly an additional $6k would not break the bank

Anyway, in your case, .375 H&H ammo costs nowhere near what the big bore ammo costs, and, more to the point, you can get regular and dirt-cheap practice with inexpensive 7x65R ammo (I have PPU in mind), even if it does not group particularly well in your rifle, which to practice quick shooting with iron sights at a 6" steel plate at 50 yards is likely plenty good enough

 

[Tam Dl]

Hmmmm.......

Very interesting video. Not sure I would demonstrate loading the double with my finger on the trigger...

View attachment 437666

You eyes are as good or better than mine... But I don't see his finger on the trigger. CAS has some pretty serious rules, that might be a DQ if he did. What I see is a finger that is curled under the wrist of the shotgun because he is supporting the weight of the gun in his right hand. One can see a different position where one can't even see the front trigger, when he is on the shot.

I think CAS has a lot to teach on gun handling, a lot of it in principle, rather than by exactly copying techniques. But CAS is a speed game primarily, and the shotgun wins the game at the highest levels. What he is doing "wrong" during that loading sequence from a combat perspective is that his eye is on the breech, not the target. That will get you killed, or you may loose track of the game. It is typical in CAS that they are not watching the target. For instance once one has shot the first pistol getting it into the bucket like holster is key as you transition to the second pistol. So where are their eyes? On the mouth of holster, not on the target. Back when they fought with such guns the fastest transition was often to drop the pistol. That will get you disqualified in CAS, even if anyone wanted to try it.

But watching a video by these guys where they show you that smooth is fast; how to break down to the smallest number of motions, etc... That can be pretty interesting. It is also pretty interesting to see them dump 24 shots onto socially distanced targets in 13 seconds from 19th century gear. Don't underestimate your gear.

 

[One Day...]

One more thing VertigoBE...

You said in another thread:

For those interested in the regulation loads, directly from Heym:
The .375 H6H mag was regulated with Norma PH Woodleigh SP 350 gr

FYI, the combo Norma PH 350 gr Woodleigh FMJ (Full Metal Jacket = "solid") and RNSN (Round Nose Soft Nose = "soft") is what I use in my .375 H&H Blaser R8 barrel for the heavies. Of course a R8 barrel's group is irrelevant to a double's group, but this is not the point. The point is that in the below group there are two solids on the right (in the bull) and two softs on the left (about 1" off the solids). What this means is that these two Norma PH loads essentially DO shoot to the same point of aim (or close enough that it does not matter for DG hunting).
Since Woodleigh does not make a 350 gr SP (Soft Point), I think that Heym meant the RNSN, or in short the SN (Soft Nose). Chances are therefore extremely good that your .375 H&H will group these solids and softs together, which is quite desirable but not always a given...

You also did say in that other thread:

Well, .375 H&H is hardly a dangerous game only caliber...

I will grant you that the .375 H&H is hardly a DG "stopper" alike the .450, .470 or .500 (which is a point that I have made myself repeatedly on AH.com) but a tremendous DG "killer" it is, and as to what a .375 H&H Norma PH 350 gr Woodleigh FMJ will do to Elephant, I do not think that you need to worry. I worked pretty well for me

And with 350 gr softs, the .375 H&H steps deep into .416/400 gr territory (see Kevin Robertson's Africa's Most Dangerous) so you are all set for DG\.

You have a beautiful rifle my Friend, I wish you a life of enjoyment and success with it


PS: since you have the 7x65R barrel for it, I would assume that this is what you would use on Tiny Tens etc. so the argument about stocking up on .375 H&H solids because they are less destructive on small critters, while true, may not apply much to you. At any rate, my own experience is that aside from Elephant, there is not much you will shoot with solids, especially 350 gr which are liable to puch in and out of a Buffalo lengthwise. I think Red Leg said somewhere above that he does not use solids on Buffalo anymore, even for follow-up shots. For what it is worth, neither do I. A 500 gr TSX .470 or .458, or a 350 gr TSX .375 are but expanding solids and will do anything - and much, much more - that a Kynoch solid used to do...

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

You can always have the engraving and the gold done later to spread the financial pain...

More seriously, the stock of a double rifle is significantly different from the stock of a shotgun (length, drop, cast, grip shape, etc.). Being able to develop perfect and unconscious muscle memory through thousands of shells breaking clay with the rifle itself (with shotgun barrels), is not something to be underestimated. The reality is that darn few of us shoot their double(s) enough to develop the same level of proficiency with double rifle as we have with shotgun. This is just a basic consequence of ammo cost and shooting range limitation...

As to reloading, as indicated by others:

1- "Slow is fast." Take your time and do it right the first time; it takes a lot less time to reload calmly than it does to fumble in precipitation and/or to pick up fallen cartridges from the floor.

2- Practice mostly double reload. I agree with Red Leg that the vast majority of the reloads will be single reloads, but you want to be efficient at double reload the rare times when it is needed, and keep in mind that single reloads are typically done under very little stress, which requires less practice, while double reloads may have to be done under stress, and THIS requires a lot of practice.

3- It is very difficult to run with an open double rifle articulated at the hinge, and you want to be careful to NOT pinch your fingers or hand doing it, which can be incredibly painful. You can certainly reload while walking, even briskly, as we have all done many times when hunting birds, but as to reloading on a mad run, I would go back to the first point above: it is faster to reload walking than to pick up cartridges from the floor...

As to extractors vs ejectors, the old rationale to prefer extractors because you can reload discretely without the ping of the ejectors revealing your location in the middle of the herd of Elephant so that you can bag two more hundred pounders, this rationale is as dead as the old days..

That is unless you are engaged in culling as part of a national park management team (shhhhtttt.... the soft hearted public is not supposed to know that many national parks have restarted discreet culling programs to maintain their Elephant population in check with land carrying capacity).

In any case, ejectors or extractors, I think that it is good advice to adopt the military premise: people fight as they train...

I for one would use ejectors if I had them on the rifle...

Instead af actively firing would you not get all the loading and double trigger finger practice you need with snap caps? It doesn't need to go bang each time. That way you get to use the actual rifle. That is what I am going to do.