SOUTH AFRICA: Question For Tootabi Hunting Safaris

[billc]

You read his one post and he applies alot with out having facts to back it up.He made the post about what was on facebook to pile on more to the problem.He talked about a u tube video with eland and becasue he never heard of tootabi game preserve there can not be one.Know secret I know loodt and plan to hunt with him if all goes well so why do you think I dont like some new guy piling on without facts.Then he makes a comment with highlighting my post about higher standards. One of the group of three made the point loodt has a temp permit and I know he has a licensed ph's to do the hunt so were is all the illegal stuff that needs to be proven.You ask about the name and use exxon as an example your right they would not like that.But someone not liking it does not make them right.I will answer with what about the new york yankees the new york gaints and so on.It is a place not a made up name like exxon.Tootabi is an area they both live in and if he wants the lawyers can work that out I am sure.Maybe i am wrong as I am not a lawyer but I dont see the problem with name.I dont like a witch hunt and that is what some are making this out to be.I will wait for loodt to make this right so we can all just move on.Sorry my post ramble and am dont type so well and my post will drive most crazy as they read them.

 

[enysse]

Not sure where this became personal for you.

You'll help me understand you immensely if you can insert a breath after a period.

Tootabi is apparently a registered name. So, there is some ownership of the name.
See if EXXON would be real happy of you opened EXXON Safaris tomorrow.

Experience does not evaporate when you change employers.

Not sure what you are on about with the PH's and Eland release.

To live right next door to someone and have similar names...for the same kind of business????

I hope Loodt is just a young guy learning the ropes. We all start some place. The whole permit business is no game. If things are not in a row you will lose your animals. I lost 4 grand worth on the last trip.

 

[spike.t]

Sorry bud. Too obtuse. Just your humour in the thread.

kook indeed!!!!:barmy::beer:

 

[HuntingGold]

I will add a little bit in here...

I have both e-mailed with and spoken with Loodt regarding some of his packages.

In my conversations with Loodt he was polite and cordial. I asked for references and he told me he was new and just getting started. He told me that there are two PH's that he uses and that if I booked with him, I would be hunting with one of them. He did not portray himself as a PH in any way.

I have been to his website and have seen past hunting photos. I don't recall seeing him in any of the hunting photos but one or two gents keep popping up. Perhaps they are his PH's?

I really have no skin in this game but offer this - I am appreciative of the folks who brought this matter to our attention. I have not booked with anyone yet and am hopeful that when I do, all will be on the up and up (legal). Some of you know that I am a game warden in the states and I just don't need any problems... OR IT COULD BE THE END OF MY CAREER!.

With all that said, I am also equally hopeful that Loodt can resolve the issues.

On another matter... regarding the name "tootabi." A name can obviously help a business and it can also hurt. In this case, while doing research on Tootabi Hunting Safaris I actually found Tootabi Valley Safaris. Up to that point I had not heard of the latter. Since then I have been on Bean's site a few times. What beautiful Vaalies he has photos of! Just based upon that, he has made my short list of folks to contact when I continue my quest for the tiny ten! This would not have happened had I not googled Loodts business. Just an opinion.

Hope all is well and hope to see y'all around a campfire sometime.
Randy

 

[BRICKBURN]

You read his one post and he applies alot with out having facts to back it up.

Please reference the post you are talking about for me.

He made the post about what was on facebook to pile on more to the problem.

Facebook is an issue, as this is where some of the hunt promotion and pictures were found.

He talked about a u tube video with eland and becasue he never heard of tootabi game preserve there can not be one.

So, Beans has not heard of Tootabi Game Preserve. No issues. The legal name of Loodts family farm is not Tootabi Game Preserve. No issue for me.

Know secret I know loodt and plan to hunt with him if all goes well so why do you think I dont like some new guy piling on without facts.

I get it, you developed a relationship.
I view this as someone being concerned enough to raise the issue. It was not done with tea and roses for sure. Oh well.
I would prefer that to everyone keeping quiet and finding out next year that hunters could not get their trophies home. I would prefer not to read that hunt report.

............

One of the group of three made the point loodt has a temp permit and I know he has a licensed PH's to do the hunt so were is all the illegal stuff that needs to be proven.

This is the central issue in the law for me. IF Loodt does not possess a valid hunting contractor/Outfitter permit from the local authority he would be in contravention of the law to arrange any hunts at all. Having licensed PH's is irrelevant.
PH's can not promote hunts, only licensed Outfitters can. Agents in another country need to check that they are working with Outfitters that are properly licensed.

Sorry my post ramble and am dont type so well and my post will drive most crazy as they read them.

Bill, just hit the return key every once in a while and you'll help me out when you are typing.

 

[billc]

I guess the easy way to answer it all is your not guilty to prove innocent.Your innocent to proven guilty.It is just amazing to me how so many act perfect but we all know there is no such thing in this world.For all this talk of illegal hunts seems weird they would even do a temp license then.I see the facts showing no guilt as of now just hear say.Nothing has been posted anywere including face book u tube or any other place that shows me other wise.Again in time I may be wrong but as of now nothing has been proven other wise.Plus even your words of the central issue in the law for me. if loodt does not posses a valid outfitter permit. Big word is if and as of now no one knows more then he has the temp permit making him legal.But your words are out there for all to see and does not look good if some one reads it.Why have that out there with no proof to show guilt.Who does it help out with out knowing all the honest answers yet.

 

[Warbird782]

There have been a lot of interesting comments on here regarding Loodt and his Tootabi Hunting Safaris. I do pray that for Loodt's sake all will get cleared up and we can all move on. I have had numerous communications with him over the last few months. He has offered me hunts and have answered questions that I have had. He has advised me to plan a hunt that works for me even if it not with him. I have also seen him advise others on this forum even though the hunt was also not with his firm. I have seen him contribute to this forum in a positive way. With all of that out of the way....if what has been alleged is true and he is in the wrong he will have to deal with it. It would be sad to see a fellow member here go down that way. I hope for him that what has been said is not true.

Please, fellow members, put your lynching ropes away until all the facts are out. Until then I will stand on the sidelines.

Dave

 

[Patrick R]

I guess the easy way to answer it all is your not guilty to prove innocent.Your innocent to proven guilty.It is just amazing to me how so many act perfect but we all know there is no such thing in this world.For all this talk of illegal hunts seems weird they would even do a temp license then.I see the facts showing no guilt as of now just hear say.Nothing has been posted anywere including face book u tube or any other place that shows me other wise.Again in time I may be wrong but as of now nothing has been proven other wise.Plus even your words of the central issue in the law for me. if loodt does not posses a valid outfitter permit. Big word is if and as of now no one knows more then he has the temp permit making him legal.But your words are out there for all to see and does not look good if some one reads it.Why have that out there with no proof to show guilt.Who does it help out with out knowing all the honest answers yet.

billc,

Just a quick question for you sir? Did Loodt guide you on your last safari trip with them? If he did without a PH permit, then the possibility of loosing your trophies is there...!!

 

[Patrick R]

This is the central issue in the law for me. IF Loodt does not possess a valid hunting contractor/Outfitter permit from the local authority he would be in contravention of the law to arrange any hunts at all. Having licensed PH's is irrelevant.
PH's can not promote hunts, only licensed Outfitters can. Agents in another country need to check that they are working with Outfitters that are properly licensed.

The HO requirement states you have to be ...the owner of the land...and it is also actepted if your rent / lease the land for more than 10 years from the owner of that land...


Loodt Büchner – Owner | Outfitter
Tootabi Hunting Safaris | Eastern Cape | South Africa


In this case Loodt indicate that HE is the landowner and as far as my knowledge his parents are the landowners. Corret me if i am wrong!! Theoretically by law he can not be registered as an Outfitter and without a PH permit, i wonder...

HO Permits

PH Permits

 

[Norwegianwoods]

I am waiting for all the facts before I make my judgment about it all.

What I do think at the moment, is that I think it is bad business practice to take a name for you business that is very similar to another business.
Specially when they both operate in the same area and with the same type of business.

I highly recommend Loodt to give his business another name.

I also want to give my condolences to Loodt and his family.

 

[billc]

No bushwack loodt or his company was not part of my hunt in SA.My plans are to hunt later this year with him if all is legal to do so.

 

[Bobpuckett]

Well guys I've been setting on the side lines watching and reading and just waiting to see what developed. Loodt and I were friends on facebook long before he came to AH, in fact I was the one that recommended AH to him the part thats got me worried is loodt would text or email me several times aday and wanted to know what I thought about his specials. When this surfaced I FB messaged him and let him know he needed to reply to these threads and I've not heard from him again. To be honest I don't think he was really trying to do something illegal just trying to get ahead of the game a little to fast he just needs to slow down follow the rules and start over again after getting the proper permits.

 

[blackdog001blackdog001]

I have no dog in this fight whatsoever. I must say, however, that I am shocked, shocked I tell you, that there are agents pimping (oops) hunts when they never even bothered to confirm the outfitter is licensed to offer the hunts. Why there might even be "agents" who book hunts who have never even been to the place they are booking, or take their "commission" in a reduced fee for a future hunt, or offer to bring a cameraman along if they reduce the fee ... Shocked. Absolutely shocked . . .

A friendly piece of advice - get as many refs as you can and talk to as many as you are able. Ask detailed questions and if something does not sound on the "up and up", question it again and if you are not satisfied, cross this outfitter off your list. When you are speaking with the refs, ask how they found out about the outfitter and then try and speak with them. The first questions should be: "Are you licensed by the appropriate government agency(ies) to offer the hunt we are discussing and do you either own or have a written lease for the land on which we will hunt?"

Pictures, websites, testimonials, booths at hunting shows, etc. can all be purchased or put together by an unscrupulous individual at little cost and effort. Do you really think all the hunting show promoters confirm the outfitters who pay for a booth are licensed and legally able to offer a hunt? If you do, I have an excellent bridge in Brooklyn, NY that I will sell you for a $1,000,000 deposit in my Nigerian bank a/c . . .

If you use an agent, consider using one that is a member of the Agents trade group. Most of those guys have been in business for many years and in most cases, decades.

I'm not an agent or an outfitter. Just someone who has been on a good number of guided hunts both inside of and outside the US, over the past 29 years. Over that time period, I've had two "busted" hunts - both times because the outfitter had too many guys hunting and not enough productive areas to hunt.

One man's opinion.

 

[huntsolo101]

Bill maybe you can just post your letter of invitation . I see a incomplete letter of invite as the first problem you will run into on entrance to South Africa with your gun permit application . His letterhead will have all the info needed to make sure he is legit . I wouldn't want you or anyone hunting with him to have issues getting your guns in.

 

[buchnerl]

Dear friends, members and all interested parties;

RE: Outfitters Licence

After months of negotiations with the department environmental affairs offices there is still and forlornly a delay in allotting my business outfitters license. I have completed all required and necessary exams, inspections and interviews with success. It has already started with applications early October 2013.

Notably all instructions to obtain a hunting contractor license from the department were adhered to last detail.

Unwittingly I made a big blunder by advertising safaris and services before I had a lawful and authorized hunting contractor license. Albeit, and without any mud swinging I expected to have my licence as promised by officials. As in very rare cases there are exceptions where entrepreneurs (persons with more than one business venture, owning land and having all necessary facilities to accommodate guests) are allotted outfitters licenses without having to do the PH course which was the case in my application. I would appoint the necessary and qualified personnel to do the work. As explained to future and interested clients.

I am remorseful for any inconvenience I caused and I believe and am confident that everything will be rectified as soon I have successfully completed my PH course in the coming week. However I do not intend to use my PH as such it is only for comforting purposes and to obtain my outfitters license. I do have qualified PHs which both are licensed by the department and they have years of experience in this field.

Thank you for all the support, condolences, private messages and countless Facebook and email messages during this time with family loss and more. Your contributions to this incredible forum are priceless and are decidedly respected.

I immobilized my AfricaHunting.com - Hunting, Bowhunting, Hunting Africa, Hunters profile and activity till I have further information in this regard.

There are many statements made that are untrue and we are currently engaged in legal action. Keep track on the forum for any further developments in this regard. Jealousy

I emphasized that I was wretched about the state of affairs, but so would reassure that it was never my intention to mislead anyone or deceive, my word is my honour and I shall abide thereby. There were promises made by the department on what can never be respected and thus was not me in the lurch. Currently I am in negotiations with the department 24/7 and I will update all as soon as news on this extremely important issue emanates.

The truth shall prevail, and all stratagems will be refuted. "You can be the moon and still be jealous of the stars" - Gary Allan.

Should anyone like to know more about the above, I am happy to answer info@tootabi.com email messages.

Kind regards,

Loodt

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Dear friends, members and all interested parties;

RE: Outfitters Licence

After months of negotiations with the department environmental affairs offices there is still and forlornly a delay in allotting my business outfitters license. I have completed all required and necessary exams, inspections and interviews with success. It has already started with applications early October 2013.

Notably all instructions to obtain a hunting contractor license from the department were adhered to last detail.

Unwittingly I made a big blunder by advertising safaris and services before I had a lawful and authorized hunting contractor license. Albeit, and without any mud swinging I expected to have my licence as promised by officials. As in very rare cases there are exceptions where entrepreneurs (persons with more than one business venture, owning land and having all necessary facilities to accommodate guests) are allotted outfitters licenses without having to do the PH course which was the case in my application. I would appoint the necessary and qualified personnel to do the work. As explained to future and interested clients.

I am remorseful for any inconvenience I caused and I believe and am confident that everything will be rectified as soon I have successfully completed my PH course in the coming week. However I do not intend to use my PH as such it is only for comforting purposes and to obtain my outfitters license. I do have qualified PHs which both are licensed by the department and they have years of experience in this field.

Thank you for all the support, condolences, private messages and countless Facebook and email messages during this time with family loss and more. Your contributions to this incredible forum are priceless and are decidedly respected.

I immobilized my AfricaHunting.com - Hunting, Bowhunting, Hunting Africa, Hunters profile and activity till I have further information in this regard.

There are many statements made that are untrue and we are currently engaged in legal action. Keep track on the forum for any further developments in this regard. Jealousy

I emphasized that I was wretched about the state of affairs, but so would reassure that it was never my intention to mislead anyone or deceive, my word is my honour and I shall abide thereby. There were promises made by the department on what can never be respected and thus was not me in the lurch. Currently I am in negotiations with the department 24/7 and I will update all as soon as news on this extremely important issue emanates.

The truth shall prevail, and all stratagems will be refuted. "You can be the moon and still be jealous of the stars" - Gary Allan.

Should anyone like to know more about the above, I am happy to answer info@tootabi.com email messages.

Kind regards,

Loodt

Loodt, thanks for the reply I do hope for your potential clients sake that you do sort out your OUTFITTERS license.

There should and is no way forward without it.

Hope you learnt a lesson as far as assumptions are concerned, especially when taking the department of environmental affairs and they're procedures for granted.

One simply can not market at any stage in this industry without a valid outfitters permit period. All be it unwittingly, this for one is the exact reason why one should do a ph course before becoming an outfitter as you would then understand the legalities involved in this industry.

IMO granting a OP permit is scandalous without a ph permit of at least 3 years, as how can one sell a product if one can not operate properly first, life works in steps an phases.

THE ONLY MAN IN LIFE THAT STARTS AT THE TOP IS THE GUY THAT DIGS GRAVES IN A GRAVE YARD AND LOODT....HE WORKS HIS WAY DOWN....
Keep this in mind please...

As far as legal action goes I believe you will be having an upstream battle especially after your statement above and that the lack of an OP was obviously factual.


I truly hope that you will continue in this industry (once you poses the mentioned OP) and that you will grow from strength to strength, and build a business over decades, based on integrity and not only top quality service but also trophies.

Good luck.

My very best always

 

[peras]

One simply can not market at any stage in this industry without a valid outfitters permit period. All be it unwittingly, this for one is the exact reason why one should do a ph course before becoming an outfitter as you would then understand the legalities involved in this industry.

IMO granting a OP permit is scandalous without a ph permit of at least 3 years, as how can one sell a product if one can not operate properly first, life works in steps an phases.

Fully agree with Jaco. Loodt thank you for the reply and honesty,good luck with your future endeavours.

 

[billc]

Being eager sometimes makes us all try to rush things.I can persoanally say I was not lied to at all by loodt.I knew he was not a license PH and was waiting for paperwork for somethings.I was not aware of the law about posting hunt offers before getting that permit.I also was told even when he was a ph we would have the services of another PH for my hunt.It maybe because I hunt alot in the states but we have alot of hunting outfitter who do not guide and the hunts work just fine.They hire guides and just run day to day stuff which is a full time job by itself.So I personal dont think not having the ph license should stop someone from starting up a business.Depending on the person the client may end up with a better hunt with 2 different people doing those jobs.Will it hurt to become a PH hell no but it could still work out either way.Go get that license and move on from your errors that were made.Anyone who cant't get over what you did most be a perfect person or forgot alot of what they did in life.I will now wait to see how that PH coarse go for you so we can take the next step of making my hunt happen in aug.

 

[Norwegianwoods]

If you get everything sorted to operate legally, I really think you should change the name of your operation Loodt.
It smells very strongly of trying to leech on another outfitters reputation.

 

[Royal27]

Loodt,

Thanks for your answer and your honesty. We all make mistakes in life, that is certain. The best men learn from these mistakes, and I believe that you will.

To reiterate what you said, you were honest with me as to the status of your license. I made a mistake by not realizing that the OL was required to market. I assumed it was only needed to have the actual hunt and I was willing to take the chance that you'd have it well before my hunt in order to support a young man who I believe has great potential. That opinion hasn't changed, and I still plan to hunt with you, after all of the paperwork has been formalized.

I've learned a lot in this thread, as I hope others have as well. I now better know what questions to ask and have a better understanding of SA law than I did. I've also learned that some seem to believe that the end justifies the means. You made a mistake, and you've owned up yo it. You didn't do much of what you were accused of though from what I can tell and most of the accusations that were being presented as fact have not been backed up by the accusers. These gentlemen I will never recommend, nor hunt with, as in my opinion the accusations were made to hurt a competitor and not to "help the industry" or "save a client." The original question of marketing without a license was a valid one and was a question. It should have been brought up in open forum. The subsequent accusations should not have been, not without fact to back them up.

Don't give up, continue to work hard, and i believe you will be successful in this business!

Sincerely,

Royal