Times Are Changing, Do We Change With Them

business skills
• in marketing and global markets
• in the power of social media
• in global networking
• in responsible corporate governance
• AND NO TRAINING in the right use of language and debating or negotiationskills. And once again my pet peeve I guess. The industry must find a way to subsidize the cost to hire the best possible PR firm to take charge of representing our beloved sport not just for hunters but for conservation, jobs, anti poaching teams to proper representation in Washington. We are too nieve as a group to fight this fight alone. I agree we are at critical mass were losing so much ground to the anti hunting community.
 
WHAT?!? HIDE OR DIE IS THIS THE MESSAGE?!? Should everyone just pretend that we are not hunters so that we can keep hunting? Should we have a secret hand signal or button that we wear so that we can recognize each other and then can feel free to speak about what we're passionate about and who we are? When did we become so fearful and weak? This is exactly what the anti want us to do , this is exactly their agenda, what the author of this post has prescribed is the recipe for the end of hunting as we know it.

Yes the world has changed and we must change with it but not in this way. I do agree that we need to come together with a united front and that we need to make a plan of action, but that is just it ACTION NOT INACTION. The biggest problem that I see is the reluctance of hunters, outfitters and big hunting organizations and websites to stand up and fight for our passion. The anti have organized and been aggressively attacking us on many fronts simultaneously and our stance has always been to not react or fight and they are eating our lunch.

We have big organizations like SCI, NRA, DSC and many others that have huge war chests but they do nothing to stand up for hunting and fight the antis, not on the ground, but in cyberspace. We must use some of that money to fund the future of hunting, we can not continue to sit back and be passive, we must fight their attacks not verbally but using the same tactics that they employ. We must disrupt them! We can no longer afford to take the high road, we need to get dirty.

Sometime it is the better choice to not engage but at this point we can see that this is a war of attrition and they are winning so look into your history books and see what we need to do, we need to hit back not hide or we will starve. We do not need to engage in petty arguments with fanatics on FB but fight back with our wallets because that is what they are using against us.

The organizations that we have been funding for a long time need to get together, set aside their differences and start to seriously fight for US and the future of hunting. We need to pressure these big clubs that are sitting on 100's of millions of OUR dollars in the name of "conservation" so that they start recognizing that hunters themselves are the ones who need the conservation the most.

They need to hire a political firm that aggressively investigates and exposes these groups for their spending practices and find any dirt on them that they can (and there is plenty). We need to sue and attack these anti groups and individual computer warriors on issues of defamation, death threats, hacking (Rowland Ward was down for months and there are many more examples like that), highjacking websites, spamming and copyright infringement and loss of income from anti attacks on individuals and companies that are legally existing and acting. They are picking us off and we are letting them. It is true they are winning because we are letting them! We are victims of our inaction and own making.

Aren't hunter the first to return to war torn countries, long before tourism. Aren't hunters the ones who will risk life and limb and disease to travel to remote places in the world seeking adventure and profound experiences in nature while at the same time sharing our wealth with those less fortunate? It takes bravery and moxxy to chase after dangerous game or wounded game…. why should we hide? Who have hunters become? Hunters have become the hunted! I would rather fight like a Lion than hide in a hole like worm. Hunters are the wolves not the sheep...

When I read something like this I think WOW, maybe the anti have won if they can chase us into a hole where we feel like we have to hide and pretend and act like hunting is our secret passion that is not socially acceptable, we are not pedophiles!

I think we should collectively change the words hunt, hunter and hunting… from now on we can use the words sizzle, sizzler and sizzling, everyone got that? Pretend that blood doesn't exist? How is that going to save hunting? No more trophy pictures? Act like we're all in the tourism industry? It'll be a big surprise when someone books some adventure travel only to realize once they get there that they have inadvertently booked a hunting safari but they got dazzled by all of those campfire and game pictures, with people sitting around having a glass of wine and laughing. At that point why not just go into the tourism industry and be done with hunting if you no longer have a taste for it! You have already got the set up, just put your gun away.

I can assure you that if the beef industry were to be attacked by the antis with videos of cows with sad eyes and sad background music playing from some famous musician to solicit donations the beef industry with hit back full force with a well though out PR and smear campaign. Why doesn't the hunting industry protect their interest like this?

I have so many things to say about this post but I guess the most important thing is WHY IS ANY HUNTER OR OUTFITTER ON FACEBOOK???? Facebook is as anti hunting as they come as far as businesses are concerned from the top management down. This social media giant has a very anti agenda and I know this from several personal experiences with them as well as what they have done to some unfortunate individuals that have been chosen to be made an example of and shamed virally while doing something perfectly legal.

The antis on social media will relentlessly feed anything that they can find until something takes off and it does not matter what. Every time something goes viral they use that to get donations and fund their organizations. We should be putting a spotlight on them showing who they are looking into their taxes and their lifestyle and their background and showing how little is going to anything but lining their pockets. The same kind of tactics that they use against hunters who dare to post their trophy pictures with their names attached.

I would not support or use FB or Intstagram. FB has done more harm to hunting than any website out there by far. They have enabled anti hunting groups, help them to persecute us, build their coffers and allowed them to use our media against us even copy righted material unless you are willing to sue them. Any hunter still using FB is enabling the antis in my opinion and opening yourself up to being used to further their agenda.

I can assure you that we are being attacked not just on the hunting front but the gun front as well. At least the NRA puts a lot of money and effort into fighting for those rights but I don't see the big hunting organizations doing the same. If you want to protect wildlife protect the hunters. Right now it's us hunters who need protection and as a result we will protect the wildlife!

I have never ranted on the site like this before! Sorry if this post is jumbled about but this has been on my mind for sometime and this letter just made me crazy. I see that the author is scared and has good intentions but I couldn't disagree with most of his ideas more.

I can assure you that @BRICKBURN and I have been on the front lines fighting the anti off on a regular, lately daily basis, and if we just let them and gave in to them AH would be long gone. AH would not be what it is today without hunters being passionate and sharing their love of hunting and their experiences. It would not be the same without the pictures and ,yes, some of them have blood, that is par for the course, it's hunting. If we remove the blood and the trophy pictures and the stories will the anti suddenly leave us alone? Never! They will have just gained some ground. Cleansing the image of hunting will not slow down this train down, it needs to be derailed.
Great post sir. We need that high powered well connected PR firm to FIGHT the right way. As you said the big boys need to open the chest and distribute the money where it can do its best to fight the antis.
 
I do believe if we stop posting pictures on social media the sharks will have nothing to feed on and will swim away.
I'm not saying not to post about hunting, I'm saying its like wearing camo. AH is a hunting site and Facebook is SOCIAL....
The other problem is the hunting industry is more divided then the Republican party....
The other problem is look at SCI donation for conservation...... SAD..... and I'm a life member.
 
So first, I totally agree with everyone that stated we need leadership @AfricaHunting.com , @Hank2211 , @johnnyblues and others within this thread alone. But how in the heck do we get it??? Feels like between between DSC, SCI, PHASA, RMEF, and a bunch of others that we are no different than a bunch of Scottish clans that can't stop the invaders because they won't stop fighting amongst each other and unite.

How do we unite? Who unites us?

Jerome is right, it is time to take the gloves off, but that takes a big NRA type initiative to do that. How do we get there?
 
Here here!
Gizmo I for one feel like the truth is best!! This is who we are like it or lump it but I will be a gentleman about it!! My Grandpa taught me the ropes so I honor him as a man.
 
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Fellow AH members, it was nice to see Jerome take the gloves off today. Even though I have never meet him in person, I have enjoyed him posts and thoughts over the years. I was happy to see the founder of this great website, type again. He is right we need to bring the fight to the anti's and not sit back and battle when the next thing goes wrong. If we keep doing this, we going to end up on the sidelines not hunting. There are lot of good people on this webpage and in hunting in general. We need to spread the message, that hunting is in our blood. It's a primal instinct. We use the animals from our hunting for food and we honor the memories of the hunt. As a fellow hunter we just want to share our adventures with others and further wildlife conservation for the next generation.
 
What's wrong with this pic?
hunting-babes-04.jpg
........... Or this........?
ATT00011.jpg

Just had to stir up the pot
 
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I see two battles in this war to keep hunting. The first is AGAINST the anti's to be certain. This battle we've been losing and for quite sometime it seems. Canadians are still hunting polar bears, yet we can't import them into the U.S. in spite of CITES and the bear population is doing just fine. Then it was elephant from Zim and Tanzania. Now it's lions. Worse yet are things in Australia from what I can see. Many say leopards with the closure this year in RSA are next. DSC and SCI have not been effective in fighting this battle as the best known representatives of the international hunting community. So what to do? I would personally like to see the NRA taking the lead on this front.

The second battle is NOT AGAINST anyone, but to either keep non-hunters from becoming anti's or perhaps to take up hunting. This battle I see being fought in many ways. It includes @billc explaining to his son's non-hunting girlfriend the realities of hunting and on a larger scale how we educate this portion of the population. Some have said to stay off FB. I personally try to share every positive story regarding hunting and conservation that I can on my FB page. Some say not to put out on social media, of which I see AH as part of that, pictures of the animals we've taken. The biggest reaction I see to that is the anti's aren't going to care about those pictures and how they're done, they're going to hate us anyway. No argument from me there. But I do wonder if those pics are being used to sway non-hunters into the anti camp? I don't know the answer to that question, but I think it worth asking. I know some years ago when I was new here, somebody posted a few pics that I found quite distasteful. The one for sure I remember was a baboon that was posed with a can of beer and in such a way to suggest the baboon had passed out drunk. I don't think I was the only hunter to be bothered by that. Now for sure I believe that as a whole hunters on AH who post pics including myself, try to post pics that we consider to be done in an appropriate manner. But what do non-hunters think of those pictures who may see them? Should we even care? Perhaps, as once again I don't want them being swayed to the anti camp.

The one conclusion I feel confident in is that we are losing the war. If we do not do something different we can hardly expect different results. It is easy to point fingers at DSC/SCI and whoever else and assign blame. Doing so in some respects may very well be justified. However I'm a great believer in the saying that if you're not a part of the solution then you're a part of the problem. Being a part of the solution may require changes in ourselves and how we interact with the world that doesn't hunt that we won't welcome, won't feel good about, may piss us off but in the end may be required.
 
Very well said Phil. Now how the hell do we get the ball rolling? What will it take for SCI or D.SC. To open up the purse and really protecting hunters
 
I see two battles in this war to keep hunting. The first is AGAINST the anti's to be certain. This battle we've been losing and for quite sometime it seems. Canadians are still hunting polar bears, yet we can't import them into the U.S. in spite of CITES and the bear population is doing just fine. Then it was elephant from Zim and Tanzania. Now it's lions. Worse yet are things in Australia from what I can see. Many say leopards with the closure this year in RSA are next. DSC and SCI have not been effective in fighting this battle as the best known representatives of the international hunting community. So what to do? I would personally like to see the NRA taking the lead on this front.

The second battle is NOT AGAINST anyone, but to either keep non-hunters from becoming anti's or perhaps to take up hunting. This battle I see being fought in many ways. It includes @billc explaining to his son's non-hunting girlfriend the realities of hunting and on a larger scale how we educate this portion of the population. Some have said to stay off FB. I personally try to share every positive story regarding hunting and conservation that I can on my FB page. Some say not to put out on social media, of which I see AH as part of that, pictures of the animals we've taken. The biggest reaction I see to that is the anti's aren't going to care about those pictures and how they're done, they're going to hate us anyway. No argument from me there. But I do wonder if those pics are being used to sway non-hunters into the anti camp? I don't know the answer to that question, but I think it worth asking. I know some years ago when I was new here, somebody posted a few pics that I found quite distasteful. The one for sure I remember was a baboon that was posed with a can of beer and in such a way to suggest the baboon had passed out drunk. I don't think I was the only hunter to be bothered by that. Now for sure I believe that as a whole hunters on AH who post pics including myself, try to post pics that we consider to be done in an appropriate manner. But what do non-hunters think of those pictures who may see them? Should we even care? Perhaps, as once again I don't want them being swayed to the anti camp.

The one conclusion I feel confident in is that we are losing the war. If we do not do something different we can hardly expect different results. It is easy to point fingers at DSC/SCI and whoever else and assign blame. Doing so in some respects may very well be justified. However I'm a great believer in the saying that if you're not a part of the solution then you're a part of the problem. Being a part of the solution may require changes in ourselves and how we interact with the world that doesn't hunt that we won't welcome, won't feel good about, may piss us off but in the end may be required.

Fantastic post Phil. Exactly what I have been thinking, but perhaps not communicating well.

I may add that hunters and hunting groups have to link up and work in a concerted effort. Sometimes I think we are too scattered and even work against each other (bowhunters don't want to allow crossbows in the bow season etc). Well the work done by local fish and game groups and the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, National Wild Turkey Foundation, Quail Unlimited, Trout Unlimited, Ducks Unlimited, Mule Deer Foundation,etc, is valuable, they all work against each other for funding and are singularly focused. Again, great work, but we need to have those groups work with SCI, DSC, PHASA etc on lobbying governments and getting the message out.

Maybe a great start would be for SCI and DSC to merge? SCI should ditch the estate record book and change some terminology in their record book process. Sometimes it seems too much like it is a dick measuring contest. Honor the animal(s) but I could care less to be recognized for my kill list.

Just my thoughts.
 
Any day now, I keep expecting to see Cheer Leaders in camo mini skirts, on some of today's TV hunting and fishing shows.
A hunter on their team takes a higher scoring animal than the other team competing for the record book and the cheer leaders break out into their song and dance up on some ridge overlooking the action.

(Professional Bass Fishing TV shows are pretty close to that already).

Ummm, that is hilarious! If they start doing that let me know, I may start watching...
 
If the leadership (the African countries we bring dollars to, the professional hunting associations, the hunting organizations we join and the like) don't speak up we, as individual hunters, are pissing in the wind for distance. We will be yelled at in airports, shunned by colleagues and made to feel like outsiders.

The organizations we support financially are failing us.

A friend that teaches the local hunting course tells me enrolment is at an all time high. So, this tells me the problem is a public image one and not the reality. The number of female hunters is growing every year! That tells me we can rightly blame the leadership. The rank and file is doing their thing and spreading the word. But, if the leadership is not part of the solution they are the problem.

Yes I really do believe there are still plenty of hunters out there. There hasn't been a major drop off in hunters since 2005, 2006, 2007. In those years hunting in Africa was booming, more hunters and outfitters then ever before. Since the economic downturn in 2008 began the hunting industry in Africa has been very up and down due to worldwide economic and stock market instability as well as CITES issues, ebola and Cecil and yes we have a image problem.

I think the author of this letter is responding in fear to a retraction in this industry as well as the noise created from the antis on the internet. It's the perfect storm to hopefully make the big organizations change their stance and start to fight back with either education, PR or more aggressive tactics. It does not surprise me that course enrollment is at an all time high, I just think hunters have been driven into the shadows because of all of the rhetoric out there. The antis are loud, but the powerful organizations there to protect our rights stay silent… I just don't think that it is the right way to go about it anymore.

By the way I believe that because of all of that is happening, there is actually no better time to go on a hunt in Africa then right now.
 
Fantastic post Phil. Exactly what I have been thinking, but perhaps not communicating well.

I may add that hunters and hunting groups have to link up and work in a concerted effort. Sometimes I think we are too scattered and even work against each other (bowhunters don't want to allow crossbows in the bow season etc). Well the work done by local fish and game groups and the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, National Wild Turkey Foundation, Quail Unlimited, Trout Unlimited, Ducks Unlimited, Mule Deer Foundation,etc, is valuable, they all work against each other for funding and are singularly focused. Again, great work, but we need to have those groups work with SCI, DSC, PHASA etc on lobbying governments and getting the message out.

Maybe a great start would be for SCI and DSC to merge? SCI should ditch the estate record book and change some terminology in their record book process. Sometimes it seems too much like it is a dick measuring contest. Honor the animal(s) but I could care less to be recognized for my kill list.

Just my thoughts.

Yeah this is the hard part. As I understand it, DSC was started by some folks who did not care for how things were being done at SCI. They tried to effect some change with SCI and were rebuffed. So they took their marbles home as it were and started DSC.

I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater as I know both of those organizations have done and will continue to do great things. But to the number of comments made in this thread about unity, how can we average Joe hunter be unified when the people who are the supposed leaders aren't unified?

I know of one gentleman that was heavily involved in developing the definition of the huntable male lion. DSC endorsed this definition. Per this gent, SCI drug their feet and wouldn't get behind that definition and as a result USFWS who wanted to see SCI get behind it moved forward with the lion ban. Now I don't know the latter to be true regarding USFWS, but I'm quite certain that SCI did not endorse that definition. Why? Well it smells like because DSC was involved SCI chose not to be. That smacks of arrogance and misguided pride.

So the idea of SCI and DSC putting past grievances behind them and reuniting sounds great, but I think has no chance at all and so our leaders will remain divided.

A regular poster on another forum whose tone I quite often do not care for, made a post sometime ago regarding DSC/SCI and the NRA. He was comparing the NRA to the other two and made I think a proper observation. Paraphrasing what he said, the NRA is run like a business and operates like one. SCI/DSC are more like their names imply, a club, without a strong leader.

I found it hard to argue with that. In DSC's defense, it is an organization greatly run by volunteers with very few paid positions. I just don't think the kind of action required wiht our elected officials is something that DSC is setup for. And I agree that SCI unfortunately with all the good they do is too focused on self-aggrandizement with all of the awards they like to hand out.

Even with the two combined however, the overall membership is quite low especially in comparison to the NRA. This leads me to believe that SCI and DSC can be left as is and let them focus on their conservation projects and to the education part of this battle. But the NRA could be the answer to fighting the anti's through gov't action.
 
So first, I totally agree with everyone that stated we need leadership @AfricaHunting.com , @Hank2211 , @johnnyblues and others within this thread alone. But how in the heck do we get it??? Feels like between between DSC, SCI, PHASA, RMEF, and a bunch of others that we are no different than a bunch of Scottish clans that can't stop the invaders because they won't stop fighting amongst each other and unite.

How do we unite? Who unites us?

Jerome is right, it is time to take the gloves off, but that takes a big NRA type initiative to do that. How do we get there?

Yes, such a good analogy! I think as hunters we are the members, supporters and donors of these groups and we should appeal to them with emails, letters or petitions to let them know that we need their support and we're not getting it. The ones that get the message and step up to protect hunters and our image on the internet and in the media will be the ones that get our support in the future.

If we could get these prominent hunting and gun organizations worldwide (we all have a dog in this fight) to start a fund to support our mutual goal, it would be a good start. Hire the best like @Hank2211 said and stop letting the antis continue to bully, shame and smear us in the global media world that live in today.
 
I think sci and even dsc have made themselves to much a good ole boy network as well as some of the other groups. The avg hunter is not even thought about by must groups. The nra is more your middle class gun owning hunter who dont want any part of the big fights and have no idea why they should be helping with hunting rights in africa. The nra fights for the stuff they know and see right in there back yard so there all happy.

I think some big changes would need to me made at sci to even get your avg hunter to look at them as a group they want to be part of. Hate to say it but to many high dollar players have ruined sci and care more about there plaque they get then if hunting rights of the little guys are around. Now as the stuff the big guys like to hunt is under attack they want the little guys to care and come help them fight.

There should be no one person picking what happens to any one animal or country. Needs to be a group and the majority decide what gets done not a few. The key is to make good choices and not only if it benefits you or your likes but what is good for us all.

We need once again to be proud to be outdoormens and women and hunters not hide in shame.
 
The problem is most hunters I know believe in one thing and not another. They fraction themselves separate from the group and only fight for what they believe. I guarantee this will be the end of us as hunters. We need to shed out pride, jealousy, ignorance of the issues and fight as team. The anti's are beating us because we don't understand that concept. If everyone fought together as one, I believe we can win this fight hands down.

We started as hunter/gathers and I still believe those primal feelings are still there.
 
I really don't know what the fight was about between Dallas & Houston & SCI . I don't know how many members Houston has, or what they do, besides place an ad in Texas Parks & Wildlife magazine monthly and have a show each year. I do know what DSC and SCI do, and how many each has, and while I am not suggesting a merger of the two, I am suggesting they divide up the work. SCI has lawyers in DC suing USFWS and lobbying. I know DCS does some lobbying too. DSC should focus on conservation and education and SCI on lawsuits and lobbying.

I agree that SCI should get rid of the record book, spin it off, sell it off, anything it just makes them "look" like its all about the size of the horns and nothing else.
 
The problem is most hunters I know believe in one thing and not another. They fraction themselves separate from the group and only fight for what they believe.

And back to the need for leadership, and for that leadership to you unite us.
 
I agree the record books do us no favors. I know all of us want to kill big animals but it has gotten to a point of being crazy. Boone and Crockett, Pope and young, SCI, Roland Ward, etc etc and there has to be official scorers and drying done in a certain way or else it doesn't count. I think Pope and Young has an asterisk for bows that go above 80% weight release.

I killed a Rio Turkey a few years ago that had a 12 1/4 inch beard and was going to enter it for my Turkey slam with NWTF but that beard would have needed some type of official measurer and I think 2 witnesses. Either way it was a major pain, and the only way you will know I got my slam is by the tails on the wall.

Same thing with sheep grandslam and North American 29, so a ewe sheep counts for the 29 but not towards your sheep slam...it is the same organization that recognizes both!!! It is beyond the point of common sense.

This to the 85% of non hunters makes them shake their head and go it is a bunch of rich guys trying to get additional trophies for their trophies. It takes away from our overall message. I would never go on a hunt and say it is Boone or Crockett or SCI gold or I am not shooting...too much pressure and it takes out of the fun on why we hunt. Some of the most memorial hunts I have is squirrel hunting with my dad and grandfather and just getting out there and experiencing the outdoors. When we talk about bonding with friends/family, the great adventures, conservation efforts, and just challenging ourselves is when we bring the 85% onto our side.
 
Where I differ a bit is that I don't have a problem with the record books. Why shouldn't we? After all, isn't big animals what excites people. I'm not saying it's the only thing but there are benefits to it. It also promotes sound conservation as big animals don't just happen. It's a product of good management practices. I also think people should be recognized for their accomplishments in our sport. I strongly disagree with the tone of people who think we should hide what we do, not post pics, not discuss it, not recognize and honor animals for what they accomplished. This, to me, is a defeatist attitude and one that comes across as that we are ashamed of what we do. I'm not. I'm proud of my accomplishments, I'm proud of the animals and the work I put into growing them. At the end of the day yes it's about the hunt but there is no reason to not be proud of it.
Now it's not something I do because it's not important to me personally to receive the awards but if people want to register their animals and the various slams etc... I encourage them to do so. It's a legacy of tradition we leave for future generations. In truth the reason I don't is because I never though in a million years I'd have made it as far as I have growing up. At this point it would cost a safari trip to register all of my animals and slams and personally I'd rather use that money to hunt. But those who do support our rights by paying the fees to do so.
 

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Grz63 wrote on Werty's profile.
(cont'd)
Rockies museum,
CM Russel museum and lewis and Clark interpretative center
Horseback riding in Summer star ranch
Charlo bison range and Garnet ghost town
Flathead lake, road to the sun and hiking in Glacier NP
and back to SLC (via Ogden and Logan)
Grz63 wrote on Werty's profile.
Good Morning,
I plan to visit MT next Sept.
May I ask you to give me your comments; do I forget something ? are my choices worthy ? Thank you in advance
Philippe (France)

Start in Billings, Then visit little big horn battlefield,
MT grizzly encounter,
a hot springs (do you have good spots ?)
Looking to buy a 375 H&H or .416 Rem Mag if anyone has anything they want to let go of
Erling Søvik wrote on dankykang's profile.
Nice Z, 1975 ?
Tintin wrote on JNevada's profile.
Hi Jay,

Hope you're well.

I'm headed your way in January.

Attending SHOT Show has been a long time bucket list item for me.

Finally made it happen and I'm headed to Vegas.

I know you're some distance from Vegas - but would be keen to catch up if it works out.

Have a good one.

Mark
 
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