Waterbuck opinion

[Moe324]

Your eland and reedbuck seem to measure ok. Might as well keep the waterbuck and just have a euro done. By the pictures you sent that waterbuck looked to be in the upper teens to low twenties. 25” not as bad as it looked.

As mentioned about it's not the length that bothered me it's the shape. It's ugly. Something a PH should of told a client.

 

[Moe324]

Phil, Not really. If the OP had a certain size in mind that he wanted to achieve, this should have been communicated to the PH beforehand. A trophy is in the eye of the beholder. All things being equal in terms of maturity, a hunter might see a 24" bull a much better trophy due to how hard he had to work for his bull, compared to someone shooting a 30" off the back of a truck.
There is a difference between a hunter and a collector, but for the sake of conservation, maturity should be non-negotiable.
From the photos, it seems like the bases on this bull are solid. Would like to see better photos of him, especially from the front. Solid bases signifies that this bull would not have gotten much longer.

Saying this, of course, a hunter has every right to turn this bull down and look for something better. This is where the Professional Hunter comes in and where his knowledge on the area pays dividends.

 

[Hunt anything]

Truthfully it is pretty butt ugly seeing it on the floor. If you would have kept the whole skin it may have been a nice rug.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Surprising it measured that long at taxidermist. Didn't look that good in the photos.

Edit: Hmmm. Looking at the photo in the salt the horns certainly do NOT look that long and definitely not of equal length that taxidermist form indicates. Ask the taxidermist to send you a photo of your salted skull. Perhaps someone slipped him a mickey (another better skull as yours)?

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Phil, Not really. If the OP had a certain size in mind that he wanted to achieve, this should have been communicated to the PH beforehand. A trophy is in the eye of the beholder. All things being equal in terms of maturity, a hunter might see a 24" bull a much better trophy due to how hard he had to work for his bull, compared to someone shooting a 30" off the back of a truck.
There is a difference between a hunter and a collector, but for the sake of conservation, maturity should be non-negotiable.
From the photos, it seems like the bases on this bull are solid. Would like to see better photos of him, especially from the front. Solid bases signifies that this bull would not have gotten much longer.

Saying this, of course, a hunter has every right to turn this bull down and look for something better. This is where the Professional Hunter comes in and where his knowledge on the area pays dividends.

Interesting response. It confirms why I'm not a PH and also why I find waterbuck a most difficult trophy to gauge from this hunter/client's perspective.

Looking at the pics that the OP posted now of the skull on the floor, the bases do look solid. As such if that means it would not have got longer and the shape would not improve (meaning a more classical spread), I would have been disappointed had I shot the bull.

I'd have to agree that good communication between client and PH is important, especially prior to being in a shooting situation. Still, if the PH knew this was the only bull on the property, well there's something a little smelly about that.

 

[revturbo9967]

I respectfully disagree with your assessment Joe. This is a classic example of a sham being pulled off by a disreputable outfitter if the details given in this report are correct. To classify all South African hunts as being like this is kak as they say over there. I don't know how many times Jacques @JKO HUNTING SAFARIS has told me "No Phil, not the one we're looking for" in regards to I don't know how many species while hunting in South Africa. He did the same, while in Uganda, location was irrelevant. It was the same on my first hunt in RSA with a different PH.

We've seen bad reports come out of Mozambique and Zimbabwe, yet we don't have this propensity for smearing those countries and their PHs due to the poor actions of a few.

It seems that more of these shams operate in South Africa vs everywhere else, and somewhat leaving it with a black mark. I know there are good operations there, but the way hunting is practiced and regulated allows for too many of these shady outfits to exist.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Interesting response. It confirms why I'm not a PH and also why I find waterbuck a most difficult trophy to gauge from this hunter/client's perspective.

Looking at the pics that the OP posted now of the skull on the floor, the bases do look solid. As such if that means it would not have got longer and the shape would not improve (meaning a more classical spread), I would have been disappointed had I shot the bull.

I'd have to agree that good communication between client and PH is important, especially prior to being in a shooting situation. Still, if the PH knew this was the only bull on the property, well there's something a little smelly about that.

I totally agree on the shape. Most definitely would have passed on this bull due to his shape alone which one can't see from the first photos posted.

Your last sentence about says it all.

 

[revturbo9967]

View attachment 624673

it was mature, just not a large trophy.

 

[Nyati]

First, you are not to blame, you are not familiar with African trophies, and have to trust you PH´s judgment.

Second, you are not the only one , I see a lot of trophies right here on this site, who should not have been shot.
Some PH´s are obviously not very professional, but in a hurry to have their clients shoot as many animals and as fast as possible, regardless of trophy quality,

This is how a trophy Waterbuck looks like, shot in the NWP of RSA

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

It seems that more of these shams operate in South Africa vs everywhere else, and somewhat leaving it with a black mark. I know there are good operations there, but the way hunting is practiced and regulated allows for too many of these shady outfits to exist.

Pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

First, you are not to blame, you are not familiar with African trophies, and have to trust you PH´s judgment.

Second, you are not the only one , I see a lot of trophies right here on this site, who should not have been shot.
Some PH´s are obviously not very professional, but in a hurry to have their clients shoot as many animals and as fast as possible, regardless of trophy quality,

This is how a trophy Waterbuck looks like, shot in the NWP of RSA

View attachment 624675

Beautiful bull. Superbly done.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

It seems that more of these shams operate in South Africa vs everywhere else, and somewhat leaving it with a black mark. I know there are good operations there, but the way hunting is practiced and regulated allows for too many of these shady outfits to exist.

The key word is "seems". You've been around here long enough to certainly have seen some sketchy outfitters, and yes without question, many have been from South Africa. And that does make it seem worse there.

I do wonder however if the percentages are that different. I'd guess that if you added up how many hunters visit South Africa every year and compared it to the number of hunters going to many of the other popular hunting destinations, that number would be considerably higher. It stands to reason that the total number of "bad" experiences would be consequently higher. But higher on a percentage basis where you add up the total of bad hunts per country and divide by the total in that country.

If compared that way, would South Africa stand out then? I don't know, I don't have the numbers to show that to be true or not.

Either way, with proper vetting using resources like this forum one can separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

[mark-hunter]

I am not the expert, but this waterbuck looks young. Thin neck, short assimetric horns etc. Not trophy animal.

It is the PH job to determine which animal is shootable or not. It is one of the first of his duties, and this is why we HIRE proffesional hunter. He is there not to tag along, but to give proffesional advice.

I did shoot young animal once.
It was my mistake, there were two impalas, ph said shot that one, i shot the wrong one, by my own mistake.
Later i shot mature one, the young one went for meat on the farm, no extra cost.

But i think, cull animal price for this waterbuck would be acceptable, although a bit bitter solution.

You memtion this was not the pnly dissapointment?
Lets hear the rest.

Was this your first safari?

 

[Nyati]

I am not the expert, but this waterbuck looks young. Thin neck, short assimetric horns etc. Not trophy animal.

It is the PH job to determine which animal is shootable or not. It is one of the first of his duties, and this is why we HIRE proffesional hunter. He is there not to tag along, but to give proffesional advice.

I did shoot young animal once.
It was my mistake, there were two impalas, ph said shot that one, i shot the wrong one, by my own mistake.
Later i shot mature one, the young one went for meat on the farm, no extra cost.

But i think, cull animal price for this waterbuck would be acceptable, although a bit bitter solution.

You memtion this was not the pnly dissapointment?
Lets hear the rest.

Was this your first safari?

On my first Safari, my PH said shoot this impala, which I did, it was in heavy brush, when we got to it he said, too small, my mistake, this one is for free, we´ll find a good one.

This was in Limpopo, RSA, the PH is a good professional

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Interesting response. It confirms why I'm not a PH and also why I find waterbuck a most difficult trophy to gauge from this hunter/client's perspective.

Looking at the pics that the OP posted now of the skull on the floor, the bases do look solid. As such if that means it would not have got longer and the shape would not improve (meaning a more classical spread), I would have been disappointed had I shot the bull.

I'd have to agree that good communication between client and PH is important, especially prior to being in a shooting situation. Still, if the PH knew this was the only bull on the property, well there's something a little smelly about that.

I suspect the PH, who in this case was also property owner, had to have known this mature bull was a dud in every respect (too short and deformed). He would NOT want an ugly animal like that breeding! This was a culling that was fobbed off as a trophy hunt purely for economic reasons. The property manager should have just shot it himself or let the client do it for entertainment. When I cull an animal on a property and decide to take the skull or hide (which I have done more than once), I pay the owner the "meat price" because the carcass goes back to the lodge. If I shoot an animal to feed property staff, the horns and hide go to the dump and I pay nothing but daily PH fee. The OP told PH he didn't want the horns but PH sent the culled skull to taxidermist anyway ... so he could pay himself full trophy fee, daily PH fee, AND sell the meat. That is bullshit double dipping. No, it's triple dipping. At client's expense. No excuse for that.

 

[BRICKBURN]

A 7 day PH course doesn’t mean much. Even in Zimbabwe where it takes several years to become a licensed PH you need to verify you can trust the PH/Outfitter you are hunting with. Reputation and experience means a lot more than being a licensed PH.

First off it is a ten day course. There are much longer ones available.

I dare you to take the course and pass. You did not bother to get the facts straight on the course length minimum.

Next, that passing mark qualifies you to look for a job. Even if you are a landowner you could not sell hunts to foreign hunters.

Next, it requires 3 years being actively licensed with that proof of the PH register to apply for an Outfitters license.

Dangerous game requirements in the PH register matter as well.

So, no monkey fresh out of school can sell you a hunt. Period. It’s illegal.

If you are so lazy as a hunter that you fail to investigate the outfitter, ph, properties etc, where is the problem?

There are plenty of film flam artists in Moz., Zim and Botswana, Zambia etc. to go around.

Political cronies being given ranches, license and quota up to the highest bribe in the middle of the season even.

Operators just setting up shop in a concession because Fred said
I could. Meanwhile being supposedly contracted to someone else. Zimbabwe is such a hunting paradise.

Wild areas; Areas poached out and hunters marched around for ten days looking hard with no animals in sight, ever. No fences though, it must be good hunting, right? Paying $1800/day is better?

Cattle boys used to push the “wild” buffalo around like Herefords.

If you provide the only water point in a desert, why would you need a fence? You don’t. Check the water “bait” and go for a walk.

Do your research of the area, outfitter and PH, no matter where you hunt.
The country is not the problem, the individual crook is.

 

[revturbo9967]

Pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

Agreed. The price usually reflects what you will receive.

 

[revturbo9967]

The key word is "seems". You've been around here long enough to certainly have seen some sketchy outfitters, and yes without question, many have been from South Africa. And that does make it seem worse there.

I do wonder however if the percentages are that different. I'd guess that if you added up how many hunters visit South Africa every year and compared it to the number of hunters going to many of the other popular hunting destinations, that number would be considerably higher. It stands to reason that the total number of "bad" experiences would be consequently higher. But higher on a percentage basis where you add up the total of bad hunts per country and divide by the total in that country.

If compared that way, would South Africa stand out then? I don't know, I don't have the numbers to show that to be true or not.

Either way, with proper vetting using resources like this forum one can separate the wheat from the chaff.

I agree the numbers of hunters vs bad experiences probably even out from country to country. That said, we rarely hear these stories coming out of places like Tanzania and some other destinations.

 

[BryceM]

Hmmmm. The word "margin" comes to mind.

If you're a hunter, working at the limit of what you can financially stomach (at any level), every animal and every situation is more emotionally charged.

If you're a landowner or PH, and your operation is financially struggling, every shot opportunity is do or die.

Both of these situations can result in a poor hunt. I'm not accusing anyone here. Obviously there's a lot more to this story, but screwups do happen on both sides. If there's a little margin in your life (again, on both sides) it's just something you can brush off.

I was shooting a cull wildebeest on a management hunt as directed by the PH....... walk up and find out the cow is actually a young bull. PH/landowner laughs and says, OK, this one is on me.

I spot a nice waterbuck before dark, we head around the mountain, find him again, set up, shoot him, think he's going down........ until he doesn't. He runs off. We look for two days and never find him. Failing to make a good shot. Failing to shoot again when I had the opportunity. No waterbuck. Trophy fee paid. That's on me.

With a little margin in your life (financially, time-wise, and emotionally) these sorts of things are nuisances. It's bound to happen sooner or later.

Now, if the whole hunt was like that and the whole situation went to crap...... that's different, but the waterbuck is only one small instance in a lifetime of hunting. The trick is to maximize your opportunities and avoid bad situations when you can.

 

[375Fox]

First off it is a ten day course. There are much longer ones available.

I dare you to take the course and pass. You did not bother to get the facts straight on the course length minimum.

Next, that passing mark qualifies you to look for a job. Even if you are a landowner you could not sell hunts to foreign hunters.

Next, it requires 3 years being actively licensed with that proof of the PH register to apply for an Outfitters license.

Dangerous game requirements in the PH register matter as well.

So, no monkey fresh out of school can sell you a hunt. Period. It’s illegal.

If you are so lazy as a hunter that you fail to investigate the outfitter, ph, properties etc, where is the problem?

There are plenty of film flam artists in Moz., Zim and Botswana, Zambia etc. to go around.

Political cronies being given ranches, license and quota up to the highest bribe in the middle of the season even.

Operators just setting up shop in a concession because Fred said
I could. Meanwhile being supposedly contracted to someone else. Zimbabwe is such a hunting paradise.

Wild areas; Areas poached out and hunters marched around for ten days looking hard with no animals in sight, ever. No fences though, it must be good hunting, right? Paying $1800/day is better?

Cattle boys used to push the “wild” buffalo around like Herefords.

If you provide the only water point in a desert, why would you need a fence? You don’t. Check the water “bait” and go for a walk.

Do your research of the area, outfitter and PH, no matter where you hunt.
The country is not the problem, the individual crook is.

I appreciate the correction. A 10 day course (not 7) and 3 years at 21 days documented hunting per year is the easiest barrier to entry in Africa. Then 60 days documented hunting dangerous game to qualify for DG license. It’s a system designed to generate numbers. I do view the country as part of the problem because many of the “flim flam” hunts that get marketed in other countries listed are a product of this system. It’s easier to imitate being a professional in some areas than others. There is an eagerness on this forum to only say positive things about South Africa when there are a lot of negatives as well. The point of my post was your second to last line.

I would challenge you to point out a single area where “wild buffalo” are herded like Herefords by cattle boys. Even in South Africa, I would not expect to see an ear tagged buffalo in a breeding pen treated with that level of predictability.