Why are Weatherby guns in 375+ calibers not liked on a Safari?

[Velo Dog]

I believe you are referencing the .375 Weatherby Mag calibers and up.

For wimpy shouldered little dweebs like myself actually no, I am definitely referencing the Weatherby .340 cartridge (and of course upwards from there).
If you can repeatedly fire factory spec ammunition from the .340, without developing a tender-shouldered flinch, you are a better man than I am (not that a broken down old geezer like me, is any sort of high water mark - LOL).

 

[Ryan]

For wimpy shouldered little dweebs like myself actually no, I am definitely referencing the Weatherby .340 cartridge (and of course upwards from there).
If you can repeatedly fire factory spec ammunition from the .340, without developing a tender-shouldered flinch, you are a better man than I am (not that a broken down old geezer like me, is any sort of high water mark - LOL).

My father, a fairly stout man even in his 70's now, decided 15 years back he wanted to brown bear hunt. He then he decided what he needed was a 340 Weatherby. I've watched him shoot it and I know he'd agree with you. He's since decided he doesn't want to bear hunt, and he's yet to convince me I need the rifle.

 

[JimP]

I can manage to shoot my .340 about 10 times with full factory or full power reloads, then it becomes a chore. Now this is at the bench with no adrenaline flowing.

Now out in the wilds I manage to shoot it 9 times with no problems once, but that is another story in itself.

 

[dwboso]

I read a blog from the PROFESsIONAL hunters test about various rifles and the PH's consensus of the good and bad of each. Weatherby wasn't the only rifles getting knocked. If i remember correctly the problem was more the Weatherby factory amo rather than the rifles. According to the blog,the issue was that factory ammo in the African heat was creating overpressure loads and sticky and /or frozen bolts and poor extraction.

 

[Velo Dog]

I read a blog from the PROFESsIONAL hunters test about various rifles and the PH's consensus of the good and bad of each. Weatherby wasn't the only rifles getting knocked. If i remember correctly the problem was more the Weatherby factory amo rather than the rifles. According to the blog,the issue was that factory ammo in the African heat was creating overpressure loads and sticky and /or frozen bolts and poor extraction.

I read that article, or a near identical one.
And, if I recall correctly - originally authored by Dr. Kevin Robertson.
It is also shown somewhere in past threads / conversations as a "cut and paste" posting, within the world's greatest forum here.
The article is an education, in and of itself.

 

[broncolcj]

STRICTLY BUSH LEAGUE

The real thumper would be a toss-up between a 6.5/378 Wby and the 6.5/50BMG


Actually, I think the thing about Weatherbys that gets the most negative reaction was the Hydraulic Shock theory that said a hit anywhere on the animal would transmit shock through the circulatory system ending up at the heart, where the shock would disrupt the heart causing the animals death. The result of believing that theory was that you could shoot the animal anywhere- so no need for accurate shot placement, and the killing properties of the high velocity bullet would take care of things. Since there was no need for accurate shot placement, it left the user free to take 6-7-8-900, even a thousand yard shots, in the belief that a hit anywhere would result in a kill. Since this does not happen to be true, it created a division between hunters and subsequent ill thoughts.

I agree. I have and shoot 2 Weatherbys regularly (257 &340) and the hydrostatic shock thing is mostly bunk. On deer and pronghorn size animals it sometimes occurs but it's really a poor justification. I mostly use them for the flatter trajectory and greater sustained energy down range on the rare "just in case" long shots

 

[Trakehner]

I'll admit, playing with larger bores on the bench is not a good thing. I've got a hydraulic rifle rest that'll handle up to and including a 50 BMG. None of the lead sled weighing it down. Sure makes sighting in scope and checking my loads for accuracy a cinch.

 

[IvW]

The original post is: Why are Weatherby guns in 375+ calibers not liked on a Safari?

This excludes all the smaller calibers.

The smaller caliber ones may be easier to shoot. The 375+ Weatherby calibers are poor choices for Africa especially for DG.

As mentioned very few can handle these cartridges due to recoil, muzzle lift and if fitted with a muzzle break it is just a nightmare for the PH and tracker.

There are so many better choices in this range of cartridges that makes it totally unnecessary to consider the Weatherby cartridges.

 

[Michael Dean]

I know that the 375+ Weatherbys are not welcomed, that being said what is the consensus regarding the 300 Weatherby? Years ago I was able to pick up a German made 300 and its accuracy is excellent. The recoil is similar to my 375 H&H.

 

[Velo Dog]

I know that the 375+ Weatherbys are not welcomed, that being said what is the consensus regarding the 300 Weatherby? Years ago I was able to pick up a German made 300 and its accuracy is excellent. The recoil is similar to my 375 H&H.

Hello Michael Dean,

A generic answer to most any "Weatherby For Africa" question is found in an older AH Thread entitled:

"Rifle Lessons Learned From the Zimbabwe Professional Hunter Proficiency Exam"

It was posted by Jerome / AH, way back on March-30-2010 and the original Author was "Don Heath".

Don't shoot the messenger,
Velo Dog.

PS:
I know that some early Weatherby .300 caliber rifles were built on FN Mauser 98 actions (these Belgian "Fabrique Nationale" made actions from the 1950's were of excellent quality).
But, I have no idea if these early Weatherby rifles were assembled in Germany or not.
Neither do I pretend to know where the first "MK V" models were made, as I am not drawn to "hot" cartridges and therefore I have never owned a Weatherby rifle.
So, I have done very little reading up on their history.

 

[JimP]

Here is a list of rifle recoil levels, it list quite a few. If you look at the .375 Weatherby you'll see that it really isn't that bad. But then if you look at the .378 Weatherby your shoulder will start to hurt. Then if you look at some of the other big boomers you will wonder how anyone could shoot them.

Also another member and I had a discussion in this thread about problems with Weatherby's. I did some research and learned that there were cases where when a hunter was riding around in a vehicle and the rifle was loaded that they did go off when the safety was released. This was traced back to backyard gunsmiths setting the sear adjustment way too light. The bouncing around in the vehicle would jar it enough that the sear would not be engaged and the results when they took the safety off would be surprising. But I also had to ask myself "why were they riding around in a vehicle with a round chambered in the rifle?" I do know that the amount of miles and the number of rounds that I have put through my Mark V that if I was going to have some kind of failure of the safety or sear it would of happened. But then I haven't played around with its engagement either.

Vel Dog, do you have a link to that thread? It sound like it would be interesting to read.

Never mind I found it.
https://www.africahunting.com/threa...we-professional-hunter-proficiency-exam.2604/

 

[Paul Homsy]

As for "Improving" the 375 H&H(the King of the medium calibre's), it does make sense IF-you do so to gain a bit more case capacity to keep chamber pressures down when loading the super heavy weight bullets. We have a locally made 380 grain 375 H&H bullet designed specifically for buffalo hunting. In the standard case and with our local powders you can get realistically 2200 Fps. If you would like to increase that to 2300 Fps which is a superb speed for dangerous game hunting, it would make sense to increase case capacity in order to achieve that. The best option is to then go the AI route as you can still shoot standard ammunition in an AI chamber. This will give you roughly 9% more case capacity. Mine is not an AI but my own design; a decent shoulder angle for ease of feeding, a neck longer than caliber and just a hair of free bore in case my "experiment" pushed pressures too high. So far, so good and for both short and long range it is superb. I download it for hunting so temperatures don't affect the load adversely and never had a problem. I use a combination of A.I loads, 375 Weatherby and other "375 improved loads".

If you increase case capacity purely to shoot 300gr bullets faster this is the wrong way to go as the 300 grain bullet in the standard 375 H&H loading is going fast enough at 2500 Fps.

I have two 375 H&H rifles and have been considering to do the AI conversion or alternatively to re-barrel to 404 Jeff. I may well first do the AI chamber and see how that works out with the 380 grain bullets.

Interesting that you bring this up. I did just that close to 30 years ago. I gave the specs I wanted to a good gunsmith and the increase in case capacity is what you mention; 9%. The speed took a jump with all weights. I took a chamber cast, sent it to R.C.B.S and they made dies for me which work perfectly.

My initial intention was to have a fast stepping 375 that could still shoot 375 H&H. It doesn't lose much speed when shooting them and it does deliver the goods at true long range. I never thought of the really heavy for caliber bullets you bring up in your post that that case capacity increase could be used for and I'm glad I read about it. In the past, I've never gone beyond 300 grains. I was planning on buying a 416, either Rigby or Remington, but after reading about the extra heavy bullets, if they shoot in my rifle and don't keyhole out to 200 yards, for pure safety, there would be no need to get a 416. Incidentally, I like the Rigby but the Remington kicks less in equal weight rifles. ( I calculated the recoil difference, it is around 14-15% ). The Rigby requires 25-30% more powder to achieve the same speeds and has more to spare in that department with less pressure than the Remington which still achieves 2400 fps with a 400 gr. bullet quite comfortably, a bit like a 300 win. mag and a 300 Weatherby which utilizes 8 to 12 more grains of powder to achieve the same speeds as a 300 win mag...With a somewhat similar recoil difference.

I've owned both and over the years 5 Weatherbys which were my long range, cross canyon rifles. There is a place for them and they all shot well. The stock does not fit me and in 340 it beat me more than my 375 improved or borrowed rifles in bigger bores...I prefer a CRF action but was never let down by any of my Weatherbys and they were all very accurate. Quite frankly I never thought I'd own one but after being in the field numerous times on long hunts, a week or more, when finally the only shot presented was cross canyon and at least 400 yards out and at times more, I decided to take a step up for distance over my 30-06 which is still my go to rifle on many hunts. For bears, I try to shoot from a more reasonable distance but now use heavy rifles after being forced with well placed shots to go on a couple of iffy chases after large black bears in grizzly country. I often hunt solo.

I'll try these heavy for caliber bullets and if they shoot, I'll stick to the 375.

 

[Paul Homsy]

Not to end a sentence with a preposition, but you have your choice of two:
1. High-jacking the original post regarding the opinion of several regarding the 378 Wby, or
2. High-jacking my question regarding comparison of the 375 RUM to the 378 Wby, given specialties of the particular rifle which were enumerated as (a) open country and (b) target range.

Sorry, I'm guilty. Didn't mean at all to high jack your post but realize I did bringing up a375 improved in reply to someone else's post about a similar 375, still very comparable to a 375 Weatherby. I'll remove my post if you wish me to. My sincere apologies.

 

[Paul Homsy]

Here is a list of rifle recoil levels, it list quite a few. If you look at the .375 Weatherby you'll see that it really isn't that bad. But then if you look at the .378 Weatherby your shoulder will start to hurt. Then if you look at some of the other big boomers you will wonder how anyone could shoot them.

Also another member and I had a discussion in this thread about problems with Weatherby's. I did some research and learned that there were cases where when a hunter was riding around in a vehicle and the rifle was loaded that they did go off when the safety was released. This was traced back to backyard gunsmiths setting the sear adjustment way too light. The bouncing around in the vehicle would jar it enough that the sear would not be engaged and the results when they took the safety off would be surprising. But I also had to ask myself "why were they riding around in a vehicle with a round chambered in the rifle?" I do know that the amount of miles and the number of rounds that I have put through my Mark V that if I was going to have some kind of failure of the safety or sear it would of happened. But then I haven't played around with its engagement either.

Vel Dog, do you have a link to that thread? It sound like it would be interesting to read.

Never mind I found it.
https://www.africahunting.com/threa...we-professional-hunter-proficiency-exam.2604/

You asked the right question. No need or place to ride around with a loaded chamber.

 

[IvW]

I know that the 375+ Weatherbys are not welcomed, that being said what is the consensus regarding the 300 Weatherby? Years ago I was able to pick up a German made 300 and its accuracy is excellent. The recoil is similar to my 375 H&H.

If you can handle the recoil and intend using it at longer range, eg. Gemsbok or Eland in the Kalahari, it would be an excellent choice.

Instead of using the extra case capacity to shoot lighter bullets(165-180 grain) at insane maximum velocity, I would use it to shoot heavy for caliber bullets(200-220 grain) bullets at respectable velocity, about 2700-2750 fps.

This would give you, sighted 2 inches high at 100 meters, dead on at 200 meters and about 7 inches low at 300 meters. What more do you need?

It would be a superb combination at long range on the biggest plains game.

 

[IvW]

Hello Michael Dean,

A generic answer to most any "Weatherby For Africa" question is found in an older AH Thread entitled:

"Rifle Lessons Learned From the Zimbabwe Professional Hunter Proficiency Exam"

It was posted by Jerome / AH, way back on March-30-2010 and the original Author was "Don Heath".

Don't shoot the messenger,
Velo Dog.

PS:
I know that some early Weatherby .300 caliber rifles were built on FN Mauser 98 actions (these Belgian "Fabrique Nationale" made actions from the 1950's were of excellent quality).
But, I have no idea if these early Weatherby rifles were assembled in Germany or not.
Neither do I pretend to know where the first "MK V" models were made, as I am not drawn to "hot" cartridges and therefore I have never owned a Weatherby rifle.
So, I have done very little reading up on their history.

Yes some Weatherby rifles indeed have some safety issues.(I have experienced two AD's with clients using them). Both of them swore and insisted that they did not pull or touch the trigger, one rifle fired when the safety was disengaged the other as the bolt was closed on a chambered round. One was a 340 the other a 300 Weatherby.

Personally I have also had a "problem" with a Weatherby.

Many years ago I got given a Weatherby Mark V in 460 Weatherby by a Spanish client. He had the rifle built in the Weatherby custom shop.

Having no need for a 460 Weatherby(I use a 500 Jeff for DG back-up), I took of the barrel gave that back to him and kept the action and stock for many years.

Having read about how strong the actions are and also their inherent accuracy potential, I eventually had a 338 Lapua Magnum barrel fitted.(I know it sounds crazy but the follies of youth!). This is a 30 1/2 inch match barrel and chamber cut to accommodate 300 grain bullets.

I currently shoot 300 grain Accubonds(@2650 fps) and 286 grain Barnes X @ 2750 fps. A long range toy if you like.

One day I chamber a round and take aim at an Impala ram out at 305 meters. I squeeze the trigger and nothing happens. Ok dud round that happens, I thought. Chamber the second round and the same thing happens!!

Ok now what! Take the second round from the chamber and make the rifle safe. Inspection of the rounds show that there is a mark from the firing pin on the primer.

I suspect a broken firing pin. I inspect the firing pin, no issues it looks fine. I then start looking at the action, slowly opening and closing it to try and see what is going on. Low and behold, the firing pin slams forward just as the bolt is closed. Further inspection reveals that there is a allen key bolt in the top between the rails of the action, this bolt is loose and does not hold the sear all the way to the top. This sear engages the firing pin as the action is closed. The bottom of the sear is part of the trigger.

I put locktite on the bolt tightened it down and never had this problem again. I was lucky to have picked this up without having an AD.

So yes, make sure your Weatherby operates as intended and be safe.

This is the most accurate rifle I have ever owned, it is a nice tool for long range shooting.

I would personally however not use one on DG, irrespective of caliber. Then again I would also not use a 458 Win in any make either.

 

[IvW]

Interesting that you bring this up. I did just that close to 30 years ago. I gave the specs I wanted to a good gunsmith and the increase in case capacity is what you mention; 9%. The speed took a jump with all weights. I took a chamber cast, sent it to R.C.B.S and they made dies for me which work perfectly.

My initial intention was to have a fast stepping 375 that could still shoot 375 H&H. It doesn't lose much speed when shooting them and it does deliver the goods at true long range. I never thought of the really heavy for caliber bullets you bring up in your post that that case capacity increase could be used for and I'm glad I read about it. In the past, I've never gone beyond 300 grains. I was planning on buying a 416, either Rigby or Remington, but after reading about the extra heavy bullets, if they shoot in my rifle and don't keyhole out to 200 yards, for pure safety, there would be no need to get a 416. Incidentally, I like the Rigby but the Remington kicks less in equal weight rifles. ( I calculated the recoil difference, it is around 14-15% ). The Rigby requires 25-30% more powder to achieve the same speeds and has more to spare in that department with less pressure than the Remington which still achieves 2400 fps with a 400 gr. bullet quite comfortably, a bit like a 300 win. mag and a 300 Weatherby which utilizes 8 to 12 more grains of powder to achieve the same speeds as a 300 win mag...With a somewhat similar recoil difference.

I've owned both and over the years 5 Weatherbys which were my long range, cross canyon rifles. There is a place for them and they all shot well. The stock does not fit me and in 340 it beat me more than my 375 improved or borrowed rifles in bigger bores...I prefer a CRF action but was never let down by any of my Weatherbys and they were all very accurate. Quite frankly I never thought I'd own one but after being in the field numerous times on long hunts, a week or more, when finally the only shot presented was cross canyon and at least 400 yards out and at times more, I decided to take a step up for distance over my 30-06 which is still my go to rifle on many hunts. For bears, I try to shoot from a more reasonable distance but now use heavy rifles after being forced with well placed shots to go on a couple of iffy chases after large black bears in grizzly country. I often hunt solo.

I'll try these heavy for caliber bullets and if they shoot, I'll stick to the 375.

To be quite honest the 375 Weatherby is one of the milder ones and matches 375 H&H AI Ballistics. The 378 Weatherby is B!#$%!!

I have two 375 H&H rifles on ZKK 602 actions. One has a thicker barrel. I have used 350 grain and 380 grain bullets with great success but I prefer 2300 to 2400 fps for DG hunting. I have found a 375 AI rcbs die set here in SA and am going to convert the thick barrel one to AI for the reasons mentioned above.

As mentioned you can still use standard 375 H&H ammo in it if needed, which is a big plus.

If that does not give me the desired effect I will re barrel it to 404 Jeff.

I will update once done and would appreciate if you could do the same.

We may just be able to Improve on the King of the medium bores.

 

[Paul Homsy]

I'll try those heavy bullets and keep you posted.
Although they do have a very high S.D. they don't have the frontal area of a 416 or 404.

Incidentally, I'm looking right now at a 404. I'll first try the heavy bullets in my 375 and see how they shoot, I would only travel (at least that's the plan) to Africa with one gun and I think a 375 is very versatile. You can also use standard 375 H&H rounds in my rifle, the velocity loss is minimal with hand loads, a bit anemic with factory ammo. I also had an Austrian Seyr Mannlicher in 375 H&H that I regret selling.

It seems there are more bullet choices offered for handloading the 416s than the 404. More versatile for P.G and D.G, however Norma makes a 450 grain bullet in 404 which would be good for the heavy stuff. Over the years I've shot most bolt action heavy calibers including 460 Weatherbys, (the first time almost 40 years ago), other 450s, 500s and a couple of doubles in 470 N.E. and a 600 N.E which I was glad only had as single round in one of the barrels. I thought I was unconscious If I buy something in the future it will be in the order of a 416 or 404 which I've shot more comfortably and more consistently than the heavier rounds and that I could also take as a single rifle probably on a second trip after I've shot a couple of hundred rounds through it.

I never shot a ZKK 602 rifle but please correct me if I'm wrong, is it a BRNO ? If it is, I've heard that they're very well made.

 

[IvW]

Yes it is a Brno

 

[reineke]

This thread is rather too complete to add anything new.
Anyway I had a personal experience in SA with a hunting companion who wanted
a Weatherby for a plainsgame hunt and surprosed the hunting party with a
brand new Weatherby .378. At the range it was plain to see that he was afraid of
this rifle with it's nearly unbearable recoil and ear-shattering report. So during the hunt
I had the opportunity to watch him shooting at a waterbuck at about 100 yards- the first shot, of course.
He plainly missed and with his second shot hit the poor animal in the front leg.
5 more shots in 15 minutes and we found the waterbuck in a little pond cooling his
wounds after further 30 minutes of stalking, the Weatherby-hero too shocked to finish the
poor animal, which then the pH did.
This is the kind of experience to build a strong prejudice indeed...