why do people not use premium bullets?

[Hogpatrol]

Not really concerned about eating lead when Forever chemicals were found in 76% of Pennsylvania tested streams.

MSN

I'm with Billy.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Where does lead come from?

China?

 

[JimP]

China?

You should know better.







It comes from Leadville, Colorado

 

[K-man]

Just a side note - our lovely "woke" EPA banned the use of lead in all plumbing fixtures a few years back. Doesn't sound too bad until you realize you can't make brass without lead! So many plumbing parts went to plastic - like that's going to last very long - And some plumbers using Pex pipe started going back to copper, and soldering it with - you guessed it - lead based solder, which is legal. Stupid EPA. about the only people to ever have a lead based problem were the Roman elite that used lead pipes for drinking water.

 

[K-man]

It comes from Leadville, Colorado

LOL I thought those were moly mines......

 

[Boyd Brooks]

Latin for lead is plumbum probably the root for plumbing because of lead pipe.

 

[flatwater bill]

Elemental lead is quite harmless unless traveling fast. Organic lead is toxic. Every kid of my generation swallowed a dozen or so split-shot sinkers while biting them on 10 pound test. They are still walkin and talkin. Outlawing lead is just another step in outlawing hunting......death by a thousand cuts. But that's JMO. To the OP's question.....the cost of the bullets is the cheapest fraction of a hunt.....choose what's best for your quarry.......one size does not fit all...............FWB

 

[375Fox]

One thing that has not been in the discussion, is that when we hunt and shoot with bullets that contain lead, more or less of the lead will end up in the animal's intestines and the meat we want to eat.

If you leave lead-containing entrails and meat remains in nature, it ends up in birds of prey and other carnivores, which end up getting lead poisoning.

Lead is a well-documented environmental toxin that accumulates in the body, and causes a number of problems.

Personally, I don't want to consume more lead than is absolutely necessary.

That is why I also stopped using lead bullets for hunting several years ago.

Here in Denmark the government has put an end to the discussion about premium/non-premium lead bullets, because the Danish government has banned the use of rifle ammunition for hunting, that contains more than 2% lead from 1. April 2024.

Several EU countries are working on similar bans on lead-containing ammunition.

Shotgun cartridges with lead has been banned here for many years.

I use Barnes copper bullets now for most of the reasons you listed. I’m not interested in eating lead when an alternative is available. I also don’t want to be responsible for poisoning eagles or other birds of prey when a good alternative is available either. The negative comments directed at your post bother me because the information is easily available, just an inconvenient truth to acknowledge. However, I won’t hesitate to use a good bonded lead bullet when I think it’s a better option. I’ve just voluntarily swapped to all copper where I feel they are equally good.

 

[Tam Dl]

Premium marketing is just adding enough to the price to convey the idea of a better product. Maybe the doubters have a point.

 

[375Fox]

If you are shooting an animal in the most common target areas (heart, lungs, neck, head) and the bullet it literally passing through the entire animal or at a minimum passing through those organs and then resting in the meat of the shoulder on the opposing side.. how is anything more than extremely minute traces of lead showing up in the intestines?

As a matter of practice Americans dont eat the intestines or any part of the bowel tract of game animals, and to my knowledge there are no cultures where hunting with rifles is common that people do commonly eat the bowel tracts..

We also as a matter of practice cut away all meat that is clearly damaged by the bullet path that would have had any contact with lead.. Many if not most hunters I know are actually a bit wasteful with meat and will cut away any flesh that even has basic tissue damage and is "blood shot" rather than try to recover it to eat it..

Granted other animals will often feed on the "gut pile" left by a kill.. but again, I'd love to see any actual evidence of anything more than just a few micro particles of lead showing up in the bowel tracts or any proof than other animals have been impacted by this, much less that they have developed lead poisoning and died from it..

I'd guess humans are far and away more impacted by exposure to lead in paint and other common household items than is even feasible or possible in getting lead exposure from eating the meat of a game animal that was momentarily struck with a small piece of lead in an area that is not going to be eaten..

The Danish argument appears to be just as unfounded and ridiculous as the California argument for only allowing lead free projectiles..

California passed their law largely as part of a movement to save the California Condor.. a scavenger bird.. they claimed they had identified a specific isotope in the lead used in ammunition and could prove that the bird was getting lead poisoning from ammunition fragments rather than lead paint, lead pipes, heavy metals found in fish, and other lead objects commonly found in their environment..

Then after no change in the birds lead poisoning rates was found (after the ban) claimed that poisoning rates are highly variable and that no data would ever be able to be provided to prove that banning lead bullets had any impact.. but they were still convinced it was a good thing for the environment..

Typical California unsubstantiated "environmental" safety BS..

The information on lead and eagles is widely available. Certain areas I think it will likely have minimal impact because harvest is low and spread over several weeks or months, but you look at a place like Pennsylvania or Ohio with short high volume deer seasons. Guy piles can become a significant part of an eagle’s diet for two weeks. The information out there makes sense to me. I have no problem using copper bullets. If it prevents unintended consequences down the line I think it’s a good thing. I do feel it should be voluntary choice though.

 

[Tam Dl]

They claim that the solder I use on copper is lead free. Looks exactly the same as when it was lead, and works the same.

 

[Tam Dl]

Eagles have a long lifespan, and so they need to take care of their environmental health. Why don't they just pass the fragments.

 

[mdwest]

We aren’t in disagreement… I don’t doubt eagles eat guts.. and I don’t doubt there can be trace elements of lead in the guts… I also don’t disparage anyone that chooses to shoot something other than lead if that’s the choice they make…

What is bothersome is when lead studies are done…I’ll use the condor issue in California again… we are told definitively that lead is the problem… then when there is no noticeable difference after the banning of lead the “real” truth comes out.. and that’s they can’t tell you what the actual impact was in the first place or whether banning lead made a difference… but… the ban stays in place (no longer a choice)…

If/when definitive evidence is brought forward and the results of change can be absolutely realized… then perhaps the ethical and right thing to do is change..

But how many times does a government agency have to tell us something like “lead bad!” Or “mask good!” Or “they are mostly peaceful protests” before we waive the bullshit flag and demand better?

If lead is bad for PA and the citizens of PA agree… then lead shouldn’t be used… to your point what might be bad there (big eagle population, etc) might not be an issue somewhere else…

 

[C.W. Richter]

Bullet technology has advanced significantly since the early days of the NP and Rem CL. Bullets like the Swift A-Frame, Norma Oryx, Federal TBBC (in larger calibers) and the Barnes TTSX/TSX have surpassed the abilities of earlier bullet designs on thick skinned (and sometimes dangerous) game.

That doesn't mean that they are right in every situation. Call it "horses for courses" the way @WAB described. Nowadays everything has a specialty bullet. The problem with going to Africa is that we are extremely limited in the calibers and ammo we can take. In that case I will always defer to the most accurate fully bonded/monolithic softs and hard solids available.

If I were shooting small varmints at 500 + yards with a 22-250REM, I'd probably use a 36 grain Barnes Varmint Grenade. But I'm hunting Africa with everything from dukier to buffalo on the menu. A do-it-all bullet is needed in this case. For me it's a 375H&H loaded with 300 grain Woodliegh Hydro for the T10 and elephant and 300 grain Barnes TSX for everything else. One gun and scope with two loads for light travel.

I'm not flying 8K miles to come home with a story of the one that got away because I showed up with a Nosler Partition.

*a 60+ gr bullet is absolutely best in 22-250 as its BC is so much higher (at 500+ yds!) 0.2 btw. 'Have you researched the drop, wind drift and reduced energy on a pill half its weight? You have to hit the target for that great ad to be realized! 60 gr+ is the way for any .22 centerfire to shoot well at long distance. (I'm not selling products here, just telling you what really works.) 60 gr Nos BT-V.
*Are Woodleigh bullets actually readily available now? (Fantastic, but old school just like the Oryx) <after the fire song playing>
*Oryx are 20 yrs old now, but at least remarkably similar to the unavailable Woodleighs-neither of them are new technology premium bullets (but they are better!) lol
*I'd say Swift SPs have surpassed the abiilities of other bullet designs on DG (as would Dr. Kevin Robertson! 2 books written on this subject.) Barnes banded Solids, too! It's been proven that 350 gr bullets work better on DG in .375.
Again, I'm objective and not busting anyone's hump. 'Also not sales & marketing for anyone!

 

[C.W. Richter]

I grew up using pretty much whatever the local Wal-Mart or Kmart had on the shelf, core lokt and federal soft points. I made the switch to premium bullets after wild boar from a nearby game farm started showing up in my area, and they started letting hunters shoot bears on the first week of rifle deer season. The difference is astounding, but totally unneeded on the smallish whitetail in Pennsylvania lol

smallish? where are you hunting? SGLs?? State Forest in the MOFN? We have shot 250 lb deer our entire lives on farms and state land adjacent to same! Sure, my friends in Sask shoot em 100 lb larger on farms, but some really big deer reside in PA. You must simply show restraint! But, as you suggest, for woods hunting, nothing premium is required at all. We have fields 400-1,500 yds long, so one must be prepared. A better rig, handloading, trigger, optics and handloading suggested for long shots on the BIG deer that do reside in PA! If you're in scrappy, rocky low-grade state land-that .35 Rem w/ Rem ammo is just fine. To ALL PA residents: Don't shoot little (young) big Bucks! Let them grow up like many of us do!!! You shot Gary Alt. Don't do that again!

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

We have Bertrum and woodliegh in oz both cheap and great results.

@rigby 416
After buying 25/303 Bertram brass I would give you 2 cents for the crap he turned out in that caliber.
Rim diameter and thickness all over te shop. Yes the chambered but because of the rim variations most wouldn't extract.
Don't get me started on fire forming the cases. 17gn of unique, half a square of dunny paper and plugged with wax by pushing up into a candle. Not a big high pressure load. EVERY CASE SPLIT from half way up to the top including the neck.
Thinking this may be my fault I loaded 3 cases with speer 87gn soft points and 38gn of 2209/H4350.
Mild load equivalent to the 250 Savage. Same result. SPLIT CASES.
NEVER had any problems with any other brass.

Rang Bruce and told him of the problem. He said they were within spec and to take it back where I bought it. Said not his problem.
Remington, Hornady, Winchester and Norma brass may loose 2 to 4 per 100 but that is expected.
STEER CLEAR OF BERTRAM BRASS in my book.
Bob

Holy cow! Those look like...Accubonds! With a different colored tip. Blimey maybe you should color it so the animals don't know you're shooting cosmetic seconds. I put a piece of tape over my .458 Lott's muzzle so the animals at the country club don't know I'm not keeping up with the Joneses. I shoot seconds too. Big deal.

@Forrest Halley
You would shoot 3rds or 4ths if they sold them your such a titewad.
It's a wonder you don't shoot cast in everything because they're even cheaper.
But then again you do give squirrels 9 warning shots with your 22 before you actually shoot it..
Ha ha ha ha ha
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Accubonds have been white tip on all calibers for sometime now. So if they aren’t white it might be a Nosler BT.
Correct me if I am wrong!

@dchum
You are correct but then you throw in the nosler combined technology silver tips that have a greyish white tip snd black lubalox coating just to confuse you more.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

This is exactly my estimate. around 3000 fps is threshold where premium bullet should be chosen.
The fragmentation of bullet is cause of penetration loss, agreed. Premium bullet does not fragment, and is holding his mass, thus holds the penetration.
We are on the same page.

@mark-hunter
I tried some 100gn nosler bts in my 25. Didn't even find a hole in the 100yds target.
Me thinks they may have been a bit fast. Later I read the box and it said Max velocity 3,200fps.

This may explain it .
Bob

 

[CoElkHunter]

@rigby 416
After buying 25/303 Bertram brass I would give you 2 cents for the crap he turned out in that caliber.
Rim diameter and thickness all over te shop. Yes the chambered but because of the rim variations most wouldn't extract.
Don't get me started on fire forming the cases. 17gn of unique, half a square of dunny paper and plugged with wax by pushing up into a candle. Not a big high pressure load. EVERY CASE SPLIT from half way up to the top including the neck.
Thinking this may be my fault I loaded 3 cases with speer 87gn soft points and 38gn of 2209/H4350.
Mild load equivalent to the 250 Savage. Same result. SPLIT CASES.
NEVER had any problems with any other brass.

Rang Bruce and told him of the problem. He said they were within spec and to take it back where I bought it. Said not his problem.
Remington, Hornady, Winchester and Norma brass may loose 2 to 4 per 100 but that is expected.
STEER CLEAR OF BERTRAM BRASS in my book.
Bob

@Forrest Halley
You would shoot 3rds or 4ths if they sold them your such a titewad.
It's a wonder you don't shoot cast in everything because they're even cheaper.
But then again you do give squirrels 9 warning shots with your 22 before you actually shoot it..
Ha ha ha ha ha
Bob

Bob,
Find some good 7.7 Japanese surplus brass and neck them down to .25 for your .25 Samurai wildcat. Better velocity than the .303 case and tell Bertram to kiss your arse! LOL
CEH

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Mine (.308) have red tips and a black coating. According to Pro Shooters Shop they are 180 grain Accubonds. What I found out online in another place is they were a special run for a factory load for Winchester - but fully Accubonds. So there ARE exceptions. But I believe white is the norm, yes.


View attachment 556036

@Tundra Tiger
Winchester used a black Lubalox coating on the balistic tips to reduce fouling. I think you will find they may be combined technology nosler bullets.
I could be wrong AGAIN tho.
Bob