9.3x62mm vs. .375 H&H Mag

[Bert the Turtle]

seems as I recall somebody posting here a while back that the 2 most common cartridges used in 1-shot kills of cape buffalo are 375H&H and 9.3x62.

there are any number of reasons for that -
1. more people hunt cape buffalo with those 2 than with 40s or bigger.
2. the people who use those calibers are, as a group, more selective on shot angle
3. with the bigger boom comes bigger recoil, and perhaps many hunters shooting 40 cal+ aren't as accurate with them as they would have been with a lighter-recoiling rifle like 375 or 9.3.
4. a combination of those, plus others I can't call to mind.

accuracy is the trump card

Can’t disagree with the need for accuracy but I am curious as to who it is that is getting one-shot kills. I’ve put more than one round into every buffalo I’ve shot. I don’t care how good the first shot is- if it’s still standing, I’m still shooting. And I’ve shot more than one that wasn’t still standing! A buffalo may kill me some day but it ain’t going to be for lack of caution on my end!

 

[John Wasmuth]

Funny how for many many years the 9.3x62 and the .375 h and h magnum worked for killing anything and everything in Africa, until it didn’t…..,

 

[sgt_zim]

Can’t disagree with the need for accuracy but I am curious as to who it is that is getting one-shot kills. I’ve put more than one round into every buffalo I’ve shot. I don’t care how good the first shot is- if it’s still standing, I’m still shooting. And I’ve shot more than one that wasn’t still standing! A buffalo may kill me some day but it ain’t going to be for lack of caution on my end!

couple pages back, I wrote about some heart physiology - if a bullet hits 1 of 3 small areas - would just be total blind zipidy-doo-da luck to hit them, the motor shuts down immediately. No waiting for them to bleed out, the heart just stops and that's that.

 

[WAB]

Can’t disagree with the need for accuracy but I am curious as to who it is that is getting one-shot kills. I’ve put more than one round into every buffalo I’ve shot. I don’t care how good the first shot is- if it’s still standing, I’m still shooting. And I’ve shot more than one that wasn’t still standing! A buffalo may kill me some day but it ain’t going to be for lack of caution on my end!

I have had one shot kills with my .458 Lott shooting 500 gr TBBCs. My wife killed her one and only Buffalo with a single shot from her 9.3x62 shooting 286 gr Swift A-Frames at 2,450 fps.

 

[John Wasmuth]

couple pages back, I wrote about some heart physiology - if a bullet hits 1 of 3 small areas - would just be total blind zipidy-doo-da luck to hit them, the motor shuts down immediately. No waiting for them to bleed out, the heart just stops and that's that.

Yes sir, read them with keen interest. Both of these cartridges have always been capable of getting the job done. Large cartridges don’t make up for poor shot placement no matter how big they are…..

 

[sgt_zim]

I have had one shot kills with my .458 Lott shooting 500 gr TBBCs. My wife killed her one and only Buffalo with a single shot from her 9.3x62 shooting 286 gr Swift A-Frames at 2,450 fps.

I have a couple boxes of the same bullets waiting for load development.

What powder were you using to get 2450, and how much?

 

[hawkeyesatx]

I have a couple boxes of the same bullets waiting for load development.

What powder were you using to get 2450, and how much?

My 2 cents worth, I’m using H414 (760 equivalent) to get up to 2450 fps with Hornady SP-RP 286 gr bullets.

Hawk

 

[sgt_zim]

I'm using 62.0 gr 2000MR (that's 0.4 below max charge) to get about 2430 with that Hornady bullet.

Swift is a different critter. It's a solid copper jacket, unlike the gilding metal jacket on the Hornady. Translation is it will run higher pressure with SAF (and Barnes) just because it's a different kind of jacket.

Over at another forum where they do a lot of talking about hunting in Alaska, a fella named "muledeer" loads up on about 64 or 65 grains of Ramshot Big Game for I think it was Partition 286, but I stand to be corrected on the bullet. I know it wasn't a SAF, just don't remember exactly which other bullet.

 

[Rick HOlbert]

Do they have a retail distributor or do you have to order directly from them?

Rocked & Loaded, I found mine on line at the time. Sorry having a senior moment and don't remember who I got it from. Searching online will be your best bet. Secondary option would be to pick up a 30-06 then have a competent gunsmith rebarrel it to 9.3X62. You'll still pay less than some of the high end rifles. Control feed? Get a Winchester Model 70.

 

[Rick HOlbert]

I'm using 62.0 gr 2000MR (that's 0.4 below max charge) to get about 2430 with that Hornady bullet.

Swift is a different critter. It's a solid copper jacket, unlike the gilding metal jacket on the Hornady. Translation is it will run higher pressure with SAF (and Barnes) just because it's a different kind of jacket.

Over at another forum where they do a lot of talking about hunting in Alaska, a fella named "muledeer" loads up on about 64 or 65 grains of Ramshot Big Game for I think it was Partition 286, but I stand to be corrected on the bullet. I know it wasn't a SAF, just don't remember exactly which other bullet.

Zim, the fella "muledeer" you mentioned is actually John Barsness who writes for Rifle magazine. His loads (up to 66.0grn of Big Game) tested (in a lab) at just under 60000lbs of pressure. He was using Barnes TSX and Nosler Partitions at 286grn, not Swift A-Frames. In my load workup with A-Frames at 64.0grn I was getting flattened primers and sticky bolt lift. I consider that MAX and won't load that again. At 62.0grn I am getting 1 ragged hole groups at 2380fps. I'll take accuracy over velocity every time.

 

[WAB]

I have a couple boxes of the same bullets waiting for load development.

What powder were you using to get 2450, and how much?

64.5 gr H-4350. Very, very accurate and no pressure signs. However It’s heavily compressed, which I don’t like. I am working up loads with RL-17 to see if I can duplicate the performance without the compression.

 

[WAB]

Zim, the fella "muledeer" you mentioned is actually John Barsness who writes for Rifle magazine. His loads (up to 66.0grn of Big Game) tested (in a lab) at just under 60000lbs of pressure. He was using Barnes TSX and Nosler Partitions at 286grn, not Swift A-Frames. In my load workup with A-Frames at 64.0grn I was getting flattened primers and sticky bolt lift. I consider that MAX and won't load that again. At 62.0grn I am getting 1 ragged hole groups at 2380fps. I'll take accuracy over velocity every time.

His loads confuse me. Many are way over max listed in my reloading manuals. Out of curiosity I have weighed out some reported powder charges and cannot fit them in a 9.3x62 case. I would approach his loads very cautiously.

 

[sgt_zim]

64.5 gr H-4350. Very, very accurate and no pressure signs. However It’s heavily compressed, which I don’t like. I am working up loads with RL-17 to see if I can duplicate the performance without the compression.

2000MR seems to perform a lot like Big Game - I've used both, 2000MR seems to work better in my rifle.

I'll give the H4350 a go though. I need some to load up the rest of my Woodleigh 160 gr for my 6.5x55 anyway.

Curious, what is the actual MAP for 9.3x62. I use Gordon's Reloading Tool. It and several other sources indicate a MAP of 56565 psi. If the real upper limit is 60K, yeah, I got lots of wiggle room to keep pushing.

GRT seems to be a bit off on pressures, though. If I plug in published loads like 58.5 gr (max load) of RL 15 with a Partition 286, GRT is showing 61K psi. Hard for me to imagine Nosler publishing something a full 10% higher than what is considered the standard MAP for that cartridge. And even at that pressure, it's showing MV of 2468. That's about 50 fps faster than what Nosler shows for that.

 

[hawkeyesatx]

Just for g-whiz purposes, 67.0 grs of H414 gets 2550 fps for a 286 gr bullet. I would start with 60.0 grs and work up. Going to 62.5 - 63.0 grs will more than likely yield right around 2450 fps for a 286 gr bullet.

RL-17 seems to be the go to powder for the 9.3x62 to really get the heavier bullets up above normal velocities.

BigGame seems to do really well too.


Hawk

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Just for g-whiz purposes, 67.0 grs of H414 gets 2550 fps for a 286 gr bullet. I would start with 60.0 grs and work up. Going to 62.5 - 63.0 grs will more than likely yield right around 2450 fps for a 286 gr bullet.

RL-17 seems to be the go to powder for the 9.3x62 to really get the heavier bullets up above normal velocities.

BigGame seems to do really well too.


Hawk

@hawkeyesatx
How would reloader 17 go in the Whelen with 310 grain Woodleighs
Bob

 

[hawkeyesatx]

@hawkeyesatx
How would reloader 17 go in the Whelen with 310 grain Woodleighs
Bob

I think it would do quite well, more than likely.
But I think you using CFE223 is the top powder for the .35 Whelen. The internal case dimensions are slightly different, and a little more powder can be put in the 9.3 case, because of less body taper.


Hawk

 

[Lyleedward]

Hello all!

I’ve been doing some homework into the whole .375 H&H Mag vs 9.3x62mm business.
Now, what I have to say on the matter is this….

The .375 H&H has a decided advantage over the the 9.3x62mm only when the 9.3x62 is loaded to original pressures.

Now, with that being said, once you start loading the 9.3x62 to 64k psi, the same pressure the .375 H&H runs at, they are pretty much equal.

Yes, I can hear the gasps, and the snorts of derision already coming about from what I just said, from the die hard .375 H&H fans.

But, I am not just callously saying that to stir the pot, so to say, nor am I trying to cause a fight.
I do have data to back up what I’ve said, and will post said data in pic form after I am done writing here.

I also want to let everyone know that, the data for the .375 H&H is with a standard 24 inch barrel, whereas the 9.3x62mm data is with a 22 inch barrel.

If the 9.3x62mm is given a 24 inch barrel, and a modern, strong bolt action, there isn’t any reason to not load it to such pressures, except for maybe one, and that’s free recoil.

I hope to open a few eyes to those who may be on the fence about getting a 9.3x62mm, and hopefully opening the eyes of those who are objective .375 H&H aficionado’s too.

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen
I’ve been taking a play out of your playbook, and have applied it to the good Ol’ 9.3x62mm.
Plus, there is another gentleman by the name of Bob Mitchell here in the states, who has done the same thing.


Hawk

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I had a 9.3 x 62 in a sako. Very good gun. Had problem with Bullet performance consistency, changed to woodliegh much better. I think the 9.3 v 375 and the 458 v 470ne. Has a lot of parallels. The amount of extra powder I tip in the 375hh and 470 compared to the 9.3 and 458 win mag for very similar velocity makes me think both 9.3and 458 wm are underrated

 

[Rick HOlbert]

His loads confuse me. Many are way over max listed in my reloading manuals. Out of curiosity I have weighed out some reported powder charges and cannot fit them in a 9.3x62 case. I would approach his loads very cautiously.

WAB, I know John rather well. He's one of the best ballisticians out there. His point is/was that loading manuals hold pressures to original specs for the cartridge. Modern powders and load data allow for loading up to 60000 pounds because of the better steels used in modern rifle actions. A smaller cylinder (action) is stronger than a large cylinder. Some cartridges are pushing 65000lbs. But again, I'll take accuracy any day over velocity.

 

[Puddle]

2000MR seems to perform a lot like Big Game - I've used both, 2000MR seems to work better in my rifle.

I'll give the H4350 a go though. I need some to load up the rest of my Woodleigh 160 gr for my 6.5x55 anyway.

Curious, what is the actual MAP for 9.3x62. I use Gordon's Reloading Tool. It and several other sources indicate a MAP of 56565 psi. If the real upper limit is 60K, yeah, I got lots of wiggle room to keep pushing.

GRT seems to be a bit off on pressures, though. If I plug in published loads like 58.5 gr (max load) of RL 15 with a Partition 286, GRT is showing 61K psi. Hard for me to imagine Nosler publishing something a full 10% higher than what is considered the standard MAP for that cartridge. And even at that pressure, it's showing MV of 2468. That's about 50 fps faster than what Nosler shows for that.

sgt_zim - I noticed in GRT with the latest nightly build that the default case volume setting for the 9.3x62mm is 78 gr. H2O. However, in the Swift II manual it's stated as "about" 75 gr. H2O. Regardless which brass is used, that is still quite a difference in case capacity.

Which in your opinion, is likely more correct?

TIA

 

[WAB]

WAB, I know John rather well. He's one of the best ballisticians out there. His point is/was that loading manuals hold pressures to original specs for the cartridge. Modern powders and load data allow for loading up to 60000 pounds because of the better steels used in modern rifle actions. A smaller cylinder (action) is stronger than a large cylinder. Some cartridges are pushing 65000lbs. But again, I'll take accuracy any day over velocity.

I don’t doubt that at all. My concern is mostly around my inability to fit some of the listed charges in a new Norma case. I have double checked with two scales to be sure. I’d love to visit with him as I just can’t figure out what I’m doing wrong.