Hunting Buffalo in South Africa vs everywhere else

[revturbo9967]

They taste real good....fences or not....

I always wondered about dudes sitting in a tree stand or blind all day on 100 aces in a populated area waiting for and then shooting a deer....sure is hunting and oh I cannot mentiin that but is free range asbthere arebno fences...

To each there own.....

I agree with your statement when it comes to hunting with fences vs non but only on a tiny thumbnail of property. I believe the negative outlook on fenced hunting comes from the states. We have some terribly run organizations which hunt fenced deer and other animals on some tiny properties. I've heard of some as small as 50 acres. I've seen zebra offered in northern Pennsylvania on 300 acres. I don't care what anyone spends their money on as long as its safe and legal, but many here look down on that type of hunting. Especially when its trying to be passed off as free range.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

@revturbo9967 When were you planning to do this trip?

 

[375Fox]

Watch the last 45 seconds of the video of this "fenced" South African Cape buffalo hunt. Maybe it's just me, but I with all of the excitement, I had a hard time making out the bull's ear tags...?

For all the good hunts that exist in South Africa, there are still a lot of put and take hunts too. It’s still easy to find YouTube videos of only bulls in a hunting area and less than wild buffalo. It doesn’t exist in unfenced areas, so still extremely important to research. The only market for bulls in breeding operations that have finished breeding or bull calves from these operations is hunting. Not saying these won’t give someone a good hunt, but it bothers me the definitions of free range, fair chase, self sustaining continue being altered and the continued excuse it’s only a few bad operations.

 

[mark-hunter]

Mark - I can't ignore it any more - it is ROWLAND not Rawland!

Haha, I admit...a typo.... repeatedly...
Well noted, @Red Leg!

 

[revturbo9967]

@revturbo9967 When were you planning to do this trip?

most likely after 2022. I had 2 hunts planned for 2019 and 2020. Both got moved to 2021 and 2022. One due my own needs and the second due to covid. This thread is more for knowledge then planning information at this point.

 

[VertigoBE]

Watch the last 45 seconds of the video of this "fenced" South African Cape buffalo hunt. Maybe it's just me, but I with all of the excitement, I had a hard time making out the bull's ear tags...?

that's a pair of brown pants right there!

 

[PARA45]

@375Fox, my God those videos are terrible. BTW, the thumb down is not to you but to those terrible (hunts if you can call them that) videos.

When I went to SA, we had a hard time finding a shooter kudu, and the owner sent us to a new area. Well, little did I know that these kudu were almost like pets. While we were set in a hide, someone came in and dropped some food, the vehicle made so much noise that it would had scared animals within 100 miles. Not these kudu, they were so used to being fed, that the vehicle was barely 200 yds away and they were showing up to eat. I refused to take a shot on a massive kudu, bigger than the one I end up taking two days later. I told my PH that I didn't come to SA to shoot, that I came to hunt. He understood, we packed our stuff and continued to hunt on foot.

My apologies to the OP, didn't mean to derail your post.

 

[VertigoBE]

I have family in this business and some friends too. I can tell you straight up there is no money in this business, I dont even know how or why they do it - I can only think for the love of it.

I think it is similar to the situation around pilots. Too many people dreaming of flying, makes a lot of pilots, and heavily decreased pilot salaries.

Honestly, who among us (who isn't already an outfitter) hasn't fantasized in selling everything they own, moving to Africa and starting up a hunting outfitter business (or being a PH for that matter)... I sure have!

 

[revturbo9967]

@375Fox, my God those videos are terrible. BTW, the thumb down is not to you but to those terrible (hunts if you can call them that) videos.

When I went to SA, we had a hard time finding a shooter kudu, and the owner sent us to a new area. Well, little did I know that these kudu were almost like pets. While we were set in a hide, someone came in and dropped some food, the vehicle made so much noise that it would had scared animals within 100 miles. Not these kudu, they were so used to being fed, that the vehicle was barely 200 yds away and they were showing up to eat. I refused to take a shot on a massive kudu, bigger than the one I end up taking two days later. I told my PH that I didn't come to SA to shoot, that I came to hunt. He understood, we packed our stuff and continued to hunt on foot.

My apologies to the OP, didn't mean to derail your post.

no apologies needed! these types of stories are exactly what I want to hear. I don't want to shoot, I want to hunt. The buff hunts in the 3 videos above is exactly how I don't want to hunt.

 

[BSO Dave]

For all the good hunts that exist in South Africa, there are still a lot of put and take hunts too. It’s still easy to find YouTube videos of only bulls in a hunting area and less than wild buffalo. It doesn’t exist in unfenced areas, so still extremely important to research. The only market for bulls in breeding operations that have finished breeding or bull calves from these operations is hunting. Not saying these won’t give someone a good hunt, but it bothers me the definitions of free range, fair chase, self sustaining continue being altered and the continued excuse it’s only a few bad operations.

Hmmm...? Not sure of the issue of the 2nd video, but what's the objection in the 1st or 3rd? Is it because these are in a high fence or because they're over bait? So, is a baited leopard hunt as equally objectionable? Maybe it's not everyone's preferred style of hunting, but it is certainly not illegal in most places. Hunting over bait and water sources encompasses the vast majority of outfitted plainsgame bowhunting done in Africa. Furthermore, hunting over a waterhole or bale of alfalfa is certainly no different than hunting in a stand adjacent to a tree dropping acorns, apples, or on the edge of a clover/bean/corn field in any of the million plus tree stands or shooting houses currently hanging in the USA. Please enlighten me as to what I am missing?

 

[tarbe]

One man's masterpiece is another man's trash.

We must be able to judge things according to our own internal standards, without having to justify our position.

Now, if we take our opinion and try to say EVERYONE should feel the way we do, then justification can be required.

My $0.02

 

[Red Leg]

Hmmm...? Not sure of the issue of the 2nd video, but what's the objection in the 1st or 3rd? Is it because these are in a high fence or because they're over bait? So, is a baited leopard hunt as equally objectionable? Maybe it's not everyone's preferred style of hunting, but it is certainly not illegal in most places. Hunting over bait and water sources encompasses the vast majority of outfitted plainsgame bowhunting done in Africa. Furthermore, hunting over a waterhole or bale of alfalfa is certainly no different than hunting in a stand adjacent to a tree dropping acorns, apples, or on the edge of a clover/bean/corn field in any of the million plus tree stands or shooting houses currently hanging in the USA. Please enlighten me as to what I am missing?

You and I are usually on the same sheet of music partner, but I have a hard enough time with blind shooting around waterholes and feeding stations with a bow for PG. But a buffalo - with a rifle?!? Sorry, I couldn't make my way through the first video. Whatever that is, it isn't dangerous game hunting - it is simply executing a buffalo.

 

[BSO Dave]

You and I are usually on the same sheet of music partner, but I have a hard enough time with blind shooting around waterholes and feeding stations with a bow for PG. But a buffalo - with a rifle?!? Sorry, I couldn't make my way through the first video. Whatever that is, it isn't dangerous game hunting - it is simply executing a buffalo.

I never said it was my idea of dangerous game hunting either, but I would be a complete and total hypocrite to denounce another hunter's legal preference of what he/she finds rewarding... And, I think we still are on the same sheet of music as long as you are wiling to acknowledge and denounce the hypocrisy that I see with too many hunters who discredit or even scold others for any legal method of hunting that they themselves do not approve... You are certainly entitled to feel the way you do about hunting from blinds, waterholes, over bait, or any other methods of hunting that you personally do no prefer. However, I will never abide anyone who seeks to admonish and therefore diminish the experiences of others who have different preferences other than their own. And please understand, I am not accusing you personally of doing this. I am speaking in general terms for the sake of discussion.

What is your personal feeling of hunting a leopard over bait with a rifle from a hide? Is that not executing a leopard? How about any one of the millions of deer killed from tree stands over food plots planted for no other reason than an attractant for them? Do you disapprove of every tactical advantage a hunter may use outside of bait or permanent hides? When you really think about it, what is the difference between concealing one's self in a hide versus a spot & stalk hunter using the natural bush, a coolie, or a rock for concealment? To be really fair, why as hunters do we not stand, wave our arms, and holler at the game as we approach it? These questions are obviously rhetorical, yet very revealing in regard to our own personal perspectives of ethics don't you think?

I am primarily a bow hunter mostly because I find it both unappealing and unchallenging to shoot game through a high powered, scoped rifle from hundreds of yards away, yet I do not disparage anyone for their prerogative to do so.... It's slippery slope drawing the ethical line on what is defined as hunting versus "execution" in my view... Wouldn't you agree? ( I really enjoy our discussions by the way)...

 

[mark-hunter]

Isnt there a country in Africa which prohibits shooting at game near waterhole? Which one it is? Or what countries are those?

 

[375Fox]

Hmmm...? Not sure of the issue of the 2nd video, but what's the objection in the 1st or 3rd? Is it because these are in a high fence or because they're over bait? So, is a baited leopard hunt as equally objectionable? Maybe it's not everyone's preferred style of hunting, but it is certainly not illegal in most places. Hunting over bait and water sources encompasses the vast majority of outfitted plainsgame bowhunting done in Africa. Furthermore, hunting over a waterhole or bale of alfalfa is certainly no different than hunting in a stand adjacent to a tree dropping acorns, apples, or on the edge of a clover/bean/corn field in any of the million plus tree stands or shooting houses currently hanging in the USA. Please enlighten me as to what I am missing?

What’s missing from all 3 videos are any cows (maybe there are a couple in second video to someone more experienced than me but it appears all bulls as well). The issue isn’t a high fence, it’s how it gets used. If it’s used to protect and improve what’s inside, I’m glad it’s there. If it’s used just to stock what’s inside, that’s a different situation. There are many more surplus buffalo bulls than cows in breeding operations, the bulls get sold and introduced to hunting operations. It’s a form of put and take hunting to me, you can decide if it’s acceptable to you.

 

[Red Leg]

Yes - you and I will indeed agree to differ on this one.

I would indeed admonish someone for shooting a buffalo with a rifle from a blind at a feeding station or a waterhole. Moreover, I would admonish the outfitter that would condone such practices. I of course would make an exception for someone with a physical disability that precluded a fair chase hunt. Perhaps that was the story here? Doesn't appear to be, but I don't know.

While I have no personal desire to participate in bow hunts under similar circumstances (laid it down about fifteen years ago), I think such hunts make sense for many people because of the relative inaccuracy of their tackle or their ability to use it. We owe that to the animal.

I find a significant practical, and yes, ethical difference between getting a leopard on bait under shooting conditions and shooting a bull in an enclosure habituated to bailed alfalfa. I suspect most people would.

Many deer or indeed shot from stands over bait. In the States where that is allowed, it is typically driven by terrain and management practices. Yes, one could make the same argument for a bull buffalo - except everywhere but true jungle, alternative fair chase options exist and are regularly followed by every outfitter with whom I have had an association.

You are correct, it is indeed a slippery slope. And if we don't as zealously protect our ethical values as we do our legal "rights," we will indeed find our sport ever more legally managed. Therefore, I have no issue whatsoever labeling a practice that I find unethical for what it is - regardless of legality. Indeed, I see it as a responsibility. You or anyone else are as free to disagree with that opinion as I am to hold it. I should also note that our two largest hunting organizations have taken similar ethical positions with regard to certain legal "hunting" opportunities in the RSA and elsewhere.

 

[WAB]

Ethics aside, you are cheating yourself of one of the greatest hunts if you don’t properly track and stalk your buffalo. A tracking hunt takes you back to the Africa we all long for.

 

[BSO Dave]

There are many more surplus buffalo bulls than cows in breeding operations, the bulls get sold and introduced to hunting operations. It’s a form of put and take hunting to me, you can decide if it’s acceptable to you.

So your definition of "put & take" is based on the demographics of the species rather than their ability to have reasonable means of escape and be pursued under fair chase conditions? Interesting...

 

[revturbo9967]

Ethics aside, you are cheating yourself of one of the greatest hunts if you don’t properly track and stalk your buffalo. A tracking hunt takes you back to the Africa we all long for.

I very much agree with this statement. I don’t know my arse from my elbow with African hunting, but I would like a dangerous game hunt to be just that, boots on the ground stalking, where the game is dangerous . I don’t have any issue with someone else hunting anything in any other manner though. It’s their money and their experience. If they want to hunt a buff over placed bait, I could care less. I hope they enjoy it, But that is not what I want for a hunt.

 

[375Fox]

So your definition of "put & take" is based on the demographics of the species rather than their ability to have reasonable means of escape and be pursued under fair chase conditions? Interesting...

Introducing bulls onto a high fenced ranch from a breeding operation, harvesting a crop of bulls each year, introducing more bulls with no intention of developing a self sustaining herd, yes that is put and take to me. You could argue it’s fair chase hunting but it’s the very definition of put and take.